Why is 3d Printing so expensive?

[Euphie]

I have a little lathe, a cross slide table and a drill press but, I want to build some paintball guns. Since doing manual operations is quite time consuming, I want to be sure I have the proper dimensions planned out on everything before I commit to building a part, especially if it has to be milled since my capabilities are most limited there.

So naturally, I figure it made sense to try and test some designs if not in function at least in fit by 3d printing them, though I do not have a 3d printer, and what I can't really wrap my head around is pricing. I would just imagine, due to the nature of 3d printing that the more material the more cost and time something would take with a certain minimum cost for setup. I feel like I must be missing something though because in glass bead PA12:


$113 for this grip frame

$193 for this body

$11 for this bolt.

To me this scaling seems very off, for example, from Xometery going with the economy tier CNC machined in T6061:
Grip frame $204 for one, $66 apiece if I buy 10 (which is way more than I would need for prototyping)
Body $168 for one $57 apiece if I buy 10, and that is with all the threads tapped but without anodizing
Bolt $128 for one $26.70 if I buy 10

So, am I better off getting prototyping done full on CNC than having it 3d printed? And why is the bolt so very much cheaper than the grip frame? What is it scaling on, because the volume and size of that body has to be much higher. I understand from Xometry that the grip frame is more expensive than the body because it is much more geometrically complex despite being smaller.

Would it be that much cheaper just to buy a 3d printer myself and print them myself or is filament really that pricy?

Edit: These prices for the prints are on Shapeways, if there is someone better let me know

[BrickHaus]

I'd say time.. and most reputable printers offer abs or asa prints which requires quite the set up between a heated enclosure and ventilation.

I have 2 cheapo printers and have days of my time into failed prints and learning. Im still not super good at prints.

But all in all, between set up, and bed time, I'd guess that body took me 24 hours to print. The frame 20, and the barrel 18. IF they didn't fail while I was at work. Plus the best Im printing in is petg, which works for most pb parts, but is weak and brittle when super thin.

the filament is also climbing in price as the industry grows, and advances materials are being made.

I'd say you seem to be in the right mind space to own one. Id highly advidlse you just get one and mess with it. Its super liberating to prototype at your pc and make a part in the basement. You can get one very cheap, but I recommend buying a core xy unit vs a bed slinger. Basically look for one where the bed travel is the Z and the xy are a gantry. Ones like the creality k1 or bambu p1p. As the print speeds are like 10x faster on that type of frame vs the old style where the bed is the Y, and X and X are the gantry.

[SignOfZeta]

I agree. The model parts he wants to make could be done on a $1200 Bambu which would deliver max quality with minimal learning curve. I’d go that route if I needed a lot of small mock-up parts.

[SignOfZeta]

3D printing sucks. I do it for a living now. It’s the slowest most expensive way to make the worst part. Nearly every means of manufacture is superior in every situation.

The issue is that it’s additive instead of subtractive, if I were to simplify it. It either takes AGES to make a simple part (FDM) or you do it faster with much more expensive machines and materials (SLA/SLS).

Designs that are more difficult to print also have to be carefully tweaked just to be made at all without falling apart. This isn’t an issue with machining.

Also, after a few years your machine is outdated junk and has to be replaced with something faster or more hifi which means all your machines have to pay themselves off quickly. Nobody should be paying interest on a six year old 3D printer. They depreciate faster than BMWs. This is in huge contrast to standard machining where a mill is good for something essentially forever. You can absolutely make perfectly good parts on a 70 year old lathe or end mill…even a decade on a 3D printer and that thing is total garbage.

Material costs are also a factor. My biggest machine at work can blow a $500 spool of PETG on a single part. Mostly I’d say time is an issue though since that part will take 7 days to print. Imagine devoting a mill to a single part for 7 days. Ludacris. It’s a stupid tech that only make it into the mainstream because it seems less yucky than real manufacturing tech. Kids who are really into Quake and porn can now “make” things on the same machine they are already staring at all day and not involve grease or sharp objects. The fact that everything the kid makes goes into the trash faster than if it were food and the machines are endlessly being upgraded doesn’t seem to bother people…

Like I said, I do it all day for pay. I’d personally rather whittle all the parts out. My company doesn’t make little toy canoes though, it makes prototypes of big giant trucks so we kinda need the 3D printing. There’s nothing better for making ONE of something. For certain things it’s amazing and game changing. It’s mostly…a scam. I would refer to the relentlessly positive hype bubble around 3D printing as an actual scam. “How to make stuff without getting your hands dirty.” isn’t a goal worth pursuing, IMO, and even so the realities of 3D printing burst that bubble. It’s not really that cool that you made a case for your Raspberry Pi, honestly, no. It should have just come with a case in the first place. And all those RC car parts you bootleg fall apart in half the time the Tamiya ones do. You can “make” a better dildo out of a banana and all those custom bits for your car look like crap, kid. Sorry. Next time buy a table saw.

[Spider!]

I still think of 3d print designs as "inside-out".

[SignOfZeta]

Regarding the price of the bolt...I'm not sure why it's so cheap. If these were FDM prints for sure that would make sense because the bolt could be made with zero supports on the tiniest of machines. If you're asking for glass reenforced nylon then I'd assume its an SLS print and supports and cleanup aren't a factor. You'd think size and time would be the main cost factors there.

The quality from Shapeways is AMAZING so that's to be considered.

That guy selling PLA+CF Phantom frames could make these parts for like $20. They won't be as strong but they will do for mockups. Maybe you should just talk to that guy.

[Euphie]

All of the triggers and such I have had made in the past I used them and the glass bead nylon 12 with HP MultiJet Fusion, and I defaulted to that since the parts I had had made in the past are durable enough to actually use, and have a smooth surface finish with decent dimensional accuracy. I don't actually know anything aside from what Shapeways says about MJF as a process, but the jump in price between a smaller part and a larger part just seems very extreme, I have no complaints about the triggers I made with the process before, if you rough up the PA12 GB it will take the air cure Cerakote well too, so it can be colored easily too.

That being said I have never used a normal consumer FDM printer before so I don't have any real comparison

[Spider!]

Special filament costs the special price. 3d print popularity came from PLA. That's pretty much the baseline for cheap and weak print material. Go up from there.

One of our paintball group machines a lot of PEEK. Apparently that stuff is still much more expensive than Teflon.

High end 3d filament printing suffers triple price hikes. The material costs more and the user market gets smaller. The improvements of newer printers lets them use ever fancier filament, but you pay more for those machines too.

[Euphie]

Like I said, I do it all day for pay. I’d personally rather whittle all the parts out. My company doesn’t make little toy canoes though, it makes prototypes of big giant trucks so we kinda need the 3D printing. There’s nothing better for making ONE of something. For certain things it’s amazing and game changing. It’s mostly…a scam...

But, see that is where I am confused, that single body is cheaper to CNC machine a single part out of aluminum even after setup fees.

I make stuff mostly with a drill press, lathe, cross slide table, files and I have recently been using sendcutsend to lasercut stuff. If I make a bunch of those bodies they won't even be CNC machined, they will be done mostly on a drill press out of an aluminum extrusion that is basically already the right shape, I just want a prototype so I can test dimensions before I commit to building a complicated part by hand, and the design isn't set yet. It sounds like 3d printing isn't even very useful for prototyping if it isn't going to do it cheaper than CNC machining is. Though I would have a great deal of trouble producing grip frames with my equipment, I might just buy a few ANS gear Ion frames because that is a very cheap 90 degree frame that already includes an ASA.

The end product is 100% going to be aluminum or brass anyway, so I suppose prototyping with plastic is sort of superfluous. I am a simple woman I don't really need to pick up new technology to make this, I just thought it would be cheaper.

[nak81783]

Euphie - It's expensive, because it's all the rage. However, I agree with SignOfZeta, they are limited in their application and quickly outdated. We've updated the 3D printers faster than toilet paper dispensers at work.

I like having access to them for prototype/proof of concept and light part and tooling applications. The latter usually requires subsequent machining, installation of bushings/sleeves/inserts/etc. It's quick, and I don't need to interrupt a machine, get a program written, order cutting tools, etc. However, most of what I do still needs something metal and machined in the end.

Many items I do also need structural analysis. The PE's I deal with tell me it's very hard to do compared to molded plastics or metals.

We've had a safety issue with a 3D printed lifting device and a quality issue with 3D printed gages.

[CUBE]

I mean... I know there's a lot of discussion here about how printers become quickly outdated, but to me, it really seems like 3D printing is rather simple at its core. It's a hot glue gun on a 3-Axis robot, and some will be faster and easier to work with of course, but they all do the same thing as long as they basically function. The parts definitely won't approach the strength of machined parts, usually, but they are surprisingly durable. I 3D print barrels and tank mounts and things all the time. Mostly, the printer is useful to me for utilitarian things like household items, tools, containers, replacement parts, whatever. It's a magic machine and I think a lot of people consider 3D printers useful only to print figurines and weird animals with Duane "The Rock" Johnson's head on them.

But those costs are very high, and compared to how much it costs to actually buy a printing setup, I might even encourage trying that out. It may not result in any of your final production parts, but it would absolutely allow you to inexpensively pump out your own physical parts that you can actually test. I have a roll of glass fiber nylon right now that I've been printing parts out of. It's also really not that difficult, and you'll likely be producing decent parts by the end of a day messing around with it. Now, that $220 part or whatever will cost you $10. In addition, now you can use it for regular human stuff. I'm moving onto a converted bus, the Jupiter, and I consider the printer to be absolutely crucial for self-reliance aboard that vessel in particular.

I will also say that I don't think you need to spend $1200 on a Bambu or equivalent machine to get the results you want. I have a Prusa Mini that knocks my socks off, and it was around $500 ish, and something like a $180 Ender 3 can be made to work just as well with additional tweaking.

That being said, I might actually be missing the point, but those are my thoughts on it.

[pghp8ntballer]

This quickly escalated into a tech bashing session…. I’m not going to get into this debate.

To your questions Euphie, the HP and other “powder bed” style printers make high quality, strong parts compared to desktop “pro-sumer” machines. But this comes at a cost because the entire bed is filled with powder. If it’s not turned into a part by the process, the powder is “contaminated” and cannot be reused in many cases. So a company will want to fill that bed with as many items as possible. So small parts that can nest tightly and use a small amount of material can cost significantly less than something large and space consuming. Think of a large tree or a mushroom. Everything below the branches or top of the mushroom needs support and that consumes space on the print bed. If FDM printing, that’s additional support material that just gets thrown away.

As an example, the company I work for has an HP MJF machine. If I need a single thing made and that’s the only thing in the print bed, it’s on the order of $400 of material. Like the bolt you have a pic of; if that’s the only thing on the machine, that’s now $400 for one. Or if we can fit 100 on there, now it’s 100 for $400. But that is in-house cost.

If you have the files, try PCBWay, Send,Cut,Send and other places besides shapeways. I mean simply shop around. See who offers what and the pricing.

If you were interested in getting a printer and learning that hobby, just poke your head over in the 3D printing sub forum here. I think all of us will love talking your ears off about printers and options.

The filament to make things like that frame on an FDM machine is cheap. The printers aren’t even really expensive. You can get fantastic machines for $450 -$1500. The learning curve is what is costly, but that’s mostly time.

[Euphie]

This quickly escalated into a tech bashing session…. I’m not going to get into this debate.

To your questions Euphie, the HP and other “powder bed” style printers make high quality, strong parts compared to desktop “pro-sumer” machines. But this comes at a cost because the entire bed is filled with powder. If it’s not turned into a part by the process, the powder is “contaminated” and cannot be reused in many cases. So a company will want to fill that bed with as many items as possible. So small parts that can nest tightly and use a small amount of material can cost significantly less than something large and space consuming. Think of a large tree or a mushroom. Everything below the branches or top of the mushroom needs support and that consumes space on the print bed. If FDM printing, that’s additional support material that just gets thrown away.

As an example, the company I work for has an HP MJF machine. If I need a single thing made and that’s the only thing in the print bed, it’s on the order of $400 of material. Like the bolt you have a pic of; if that’s the only thing on the machine, that’s now $400 for one. Or if we can fit 100 on there, now it’s 100 for $400. But that is in-house cost.

If you have the files, try PCBWay, Send,Cut,Send and other places besides shapeways. I mean simply shop around. See who offers what and the pricing.

If you were interested in getting a printer and learning that hobby, just poke your head over in the 3D printing sub forum here. I think all of us will love talking your ears off about printers and options.

The filament to make things like that frame on an FDM machine is cheap. The printers aren’t even really expensive. You can get fantastic machines for $450 -$1500. The learning curve is what is costly, but that’s mostly time.

I suppose this actually answers my question, so the thing that is costing the money is more opportunity cost based on the size of the parts taking up possible build volume.

i suppose I could make that body smaller, it doesn’t need to be 250mm long I only picked that length because the extrusions are that long and since I don’t have a bandsaw it would be slightly annoying to cut them down.

I do know someone who wanted to sell me a barely used Creality Sermoon v1 pro for $200, and it looks real nice because it is fully enclosed but, I don’t know if something like that would be sufficient to prototype with. The person who wanted to get rid of it acted like it was obsolete but I don’t know if they is a problem for what I would need or not.

But I did after posting this look at filament prices and it is hard for me to have an intuitive sense for how much it would cost but it seems like it would be pretty cheap compared to MJF. I suppose for prototyping purposes I could even just glue parts together and exceed the build capacity.

i suppose my fear is with that that it will mean less time with Fusion 360 designing parts (which I weirdly enjoy despite it not being that useful as I work off a drawing not a cad file normally) and more time troubleshooting a printer, are there truly things I can just buy and print with, not needing upgrades or new parts made to start?

[devilzcall]

Shapeways has always been immensely expensive.

Most commercial/industrial 3d printing service providers will offer MJF or SLS printing because fdm likely doesn't cut it even for prototyping. Some that offer FDM parts, still do so from 100k$+ Stratasys printers which offer good quality, but don't havy any secret sauce over pro-sumer machines. So even then, parts are priced going by machine hours and those are not much cheaper than cnc.

PCBway and JLCPCB offer really competitive sls and mjf parts, but gun-shaped parts may get seized in customs (what you're showing here is probably fine).

Btw that body printed in petg (FDM) will last perfectly fine for normal play unless you step on it. source: I run a printed frame on my SPump and also this:

[RAZRBAKK]

Hey just curious about this grip frame. A friend of mine is looking for an HPA grip for his airsoft gun, and this looks close. They take the AR style mounts but have space for the HPA line. Is this in a similar vein?

[devilzcall]

That's exactly it. not for airsoft in my case, but should be compatible. These empire ASAs are sometimes not easy to get ahold of, and you need the BT07/15 mounting pieces that came with the on/off originally. I'm happy to share my files if i deem this serviceable.

Other than this, i can highly recommend the MAD hpa grip system, it supports a lot of cheaper regs

[pghp8ntballer]

My bad in my earlier comment about posting in the 3D printing sub forum… I didn’t realize it was in here already, lol.

Euphie to give you a better understanding of printing and costs, you can download and install a slicer like Cura, Prusa Slicer or Orca Slicer. They are all free with no subscriptions or anything like that. There should be tons of tutorials to give you a quick run down of the basics.

At that point you can take one of your models and slice it. The slicer will tell you how many grams it takes to print including all support material. With this you can get an idea of how much it costs to print something out of a spool. Let’s say your frame takes 200 grams to print. The spool of PETG you buy cost $20. So that frame costs you $4 to make each time.

Now onto the Sermoon. I don’t remember the specs of those machines. As long as it functions properly it’s a perfectly fine machine to use. It won’t be the fastest or slowest or best or worst. But I don’t think a lot of them were sold. So the pool of people out there that can help you with the quirks of that machine is smaller.

I would say an enclosed printer will only be necessary if you have sensitivities to chemical smells or the like. PLA, PETG, and TPU really don’t smell funky at all and don’t require an enclosure to print. If you want to print ABS, ASA, or Nylon or other fancy stuff like polycarbonate an enclosed printer is almost a requirement. Both ASA and ABS require an enclosure for heat and they are nasty smelling.

If you go the route of buying a printer, this group can give you a couple of great choices depending on your budget.

[Drcemento]

I think you'd love having one and it will be a great asset for prototyping I finally got one -cheep magician X2 from mingoa. I'm fluent in solidworks which is a huge advantage that it already looks like you have. I had it set up in 20 minutes. I've bee printing like mad ever since december. I run a precast concrete shop - counters, furniture etc, and I have found so many uses for it - and so far only had one print failure when I was trying out PETG for the first time and did not have the temp settings correct. they are pretty user friendly these days compared even a couple years ago. hard to got wrong for the price, especially if you can build the models.

[SignOfZeta]

I mean... I know there's a lot of discussion here about how printers become quickly outdated, but to me, it really seems like 3D printing is rather simple at its core. It's a hot glue gun on a 3-Axis robot, and some will be faster and easier to work with of course, but they all do the same thing as long as they basically function. The parts definitely won't approach the strength of machined parts, usually, but they are surprisingly durable. I 3D print barrels and tank mounts and things all the time. Mostly, the printer is useful to me for utilitarian things like household items, tools, containers, replacement parts, whatever. It's a magic machine and I think a lot of people consider 3D printers useful only to print figurines and weird animals with Duane "The Rock" Johnson's head on them.

But those costs are very high, and compared to how much it costs to actually buy a printing setup, I might even encourage trying that out. It may not result in any of your final production parts, but it would absolutely allow you to inexpensively pump out your own physical parts that you can actually test. I have a roll of glass fiber nylon right now that I've been printing parts out of. It's also really not that difficult, and you'll likely be producing decent parts by the end of a day messing around with it. Now, that $220 part or whatever will cost you $10. In addition, now you can use it for regular human stuff. I'm moving onto a converted bus, the Jupiter, and I consider the printer to be absolutely crucial for self-reliance aboard that vessel in particular.

I will also say that I don't think you need to spend $1200 on a Bambu or equivalent machine to get the results you want. I have a Prusa Mini that knocks my socks off, and it was around $500 ish, and something like a $180 Ender 3 can be made to work just as well with additional tweaking.

That being said, I might actually be missing the point, but those are my thoughts on it.

As a hobbyist, I can see this POV but in a professional setting…the difference in price between a Bambu and something else is something I’d gladly pay…in some cases for a single job. $500 is nothing in an actual manufacturing setting. If you’d rather spend days messing with something to avoid spending a few hundred bucks you’re totally going out of business. We have two Bambu’s at work and I couldn’t have higher praise. The X1 Carbon is as well put together of a product as an iPhone or a Lexus. They never blow any print that has been sliced remotely properly and everything is simple and just works. When you need maintenance it tells you, puts a QR code on the screen, you scan it, it shows you a video of how to do the work. It comes with all its grease and cleaning tools. It’s fast as BLEEP and has phenomenal quality. I honestly wouldn’t buy anything else in its class even as a home gamer but especially for work. It pays for itself quickly by not wasting your TIME which is much more valuable than money.

[CUBE]

Yeah, I guess if you're using it to crunch out prototypes like crazy and it's a more professional kind of setting, stronger tools are more necessary. The Bambu sounds a lot more efficient in such a setting.

[The Hobbit]

What program are you using to do your cad work in?

[Euphie]

I use Fusion 360, it can do basically anything. I also use Tinkercad and e-machineshop but Fusion is by far the most useful program, it is basically a one stop shop and does stuff like drawings too.