Realistic feasibility of a largely 3d printed Paintball Marker

[Vegabond]

So, the 2A community has developed several designs of 3d printed firearms and such. How feasible is it for paintball, combined with off the shelf parts, to also create its own set of printable markers?

[JonM]

3D printed markers have been done. That being said, any components that actually hold pressure need to be built from more traditional materials for safety. Could it be done without them? Yeah, probably. Then again, I wouldn't risk it. Kind of like how most 3D printed firearms still use more traditional parts for similar reasons.

[Vegabond]

ya, I expect parts that need to hold pressure would need to be reinforced with metal tubing and such, but it seems like the frames could largely be printed and such. I see a lot of misc parts for markers but I have yet to come across a depository of frames and such to build a marker.

[JonM]

I have a PGP2 where I designed and printed the frame, pump handle, feed plug, sight rail, front sight, and muzzle break. The parts exist, but they tend to be project markers and files are not always shared for free.

[tyronejk]

I think a good example of what parts can be plastic and others have to be metal is the Etha 2/3. So anything plastic/composite on the Etha 2/3 could probably be 3D-printed.

However, I don't think there are any off-the-shelf metal internal parts you could use to 3D-print a gun around. (Unless you consider Etha parts to be off-the-shelf, in which case, it would be easier to just buy an Etha)

[Vegabond]

old tippman parts seem to be around in droves, using donor parts from them to make markers seems feasible as well.

[Trbo323]

I think a good example of what parts can be plastic and others have to be metal is the Etha 2/3. So anything plastic/composite on the Etha 2/3 could probably be 3D-printed.

However, I don't think there are any off-the-shelf metal internal parts you could use to 3D-print a gun around. (Unless you consider Etha parts to be off-the-shelf, in which case, it would be easier to just buy an Etha)

This is kind of where I'm at as well you can print a lot of the components like the exterior body and frame when it comes to the valves they need to be airtight so any small imperfections will ruin that. Even if you did manage to print a valve with grooves for o rings my concern would be once it starts cycling it would quickly crack. That is all assuming it doesn't explode the first time pressure is placed into it

Firearms have an advantage in that they don't need to hold pressure at rest also when the pressure is applied it's only for a fraction of a second and realistically they don't even need to be 100% airtight for that

So while I do think it can be done the amount of design work and test printing is really high all to get an end result that I don't think would be very reliable

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[Hobbes]

I could see this working for a Phantom/Trracer style marker. Off the shelf valve/internals with a 3D printed body, frame, pump handle, and barrel. I also have no experience with this can be seen shouting at clouds.

[Vegabond]

This is kind of where I'm at as well you can print a lot of the components like the exterior body and frame when it comes to the valves they need to be airtight so any small imperfections will ruin that. Even if you did manage to print a valve with grooves for o rings my concern would be once it starts cycling it would quickly crack. That is all assuming it doesn't explode the first time pressure is placed into it

Firearms have an advantage in that they don't need to hold pressure at rest also when the pressure is applied it's only for a fraction of a second and realistically they don't even need to be 100% airtight for that

So while I do think it can be done the amount of design work and test printing is really high all to get an end result that I don't think would be very reliable

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see, I feel like using carbon fiber tubing could be used for the internals (or copper, aluminum, steel etc) . the bigger issue I see is cutting these parts for any needed holes or screws. Someone on here did a pgp in largely carbon fiber (including the co2 portion, if I recall correctly). Thats a marker I would love to see recreated as a partly printed marker with updated internals as its getting really hard to rebuild those (part scarcity). But ya I think pumps are a good place to start in general.

[SignOfZeta]

As has been mentioned, it’s been done. They’re mostly all in the garbage already though, of course.

The question is…why would you forgo conventional manufacturing to spend more time and money making something crappier? That’s the real question. If you don’t have an answer…I’d say quit.

[Trbo323]

see, I feel like using carbon fiber tubing could be used for the internals (or copper, aluminum, steel etc) . the bigger issue I see is cutting these parts for any needed holes or screws. Someone on here did a pgp in largely carbon fiber (including the co2 portion, if I recall correctly). Thats a marker I would love to see recreated as a partly printed marker with updated internals as its getting really hard to rebuild those (part scarcity). But ya I think pumps are a good place to start in general.

I think I remember that pgp but I'm pretty sure it was a cartridge valve so none of the carbon fiber was holding pressure. I could be wrong on that but if I were doing something like that, that's the way I would do it.

The largest problem with using an off the shelf tube that I see isn't cutting holes, that's easy enough with a drill, but most markers have at least 2 different internal diameters. The difference in the two typically makes a shelf that holds the valve in and prevents it from going out the barrel.

You could do something like a STBB since those are two equal size tubes on top of each other but that design also will have a lot more joints and areas that hold pressure so it could get difficult.

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[SignOfZeta]

A Phantom made with a CF tube body is going to need a new CF tube body every other game. The abrasion of the both and hammer and bolt action are going to slaughter the insides. The oil needed will give it some help since most lubricants deteriorate most epoxies and CF is basically just a bunch of dust and glue smooshed together. Good luck getting that front screw boss to stay put…

A Carter style pump would make it even worse. The slots in the sides would be wallered out after a bag of paint.

Has anyone made a gun out of cheese yet? Or bone? If the goal is to make a crap gun by building it out of terrible materials it could be way cooler. Urea resin? Marble?

[Grendel]

If you are wanting to do this for "shits and giggles", "to see if I can",...etc fine go for it. As you said it has already been done with firearms and they deal with pressures no paintball gun has ever had to deal with, so it is doable. So go have fun and pick the brains of those who can help feed you knowledge/experience.

As SignOfZeta said why 3D printing over conventional manufacturing process. Home/light industrial 3D printing is great for prototyping/one offs but is not an economical solution for making things yet. What are the positives you gain from using 3D printing a marker? Repeatability and specification tolerances are definitely not there especially with a material that is drastically affected by just humidity variation and that is just one variable. 3D printing is not a truly scalable manufacturing process, one printer even optimized can only make one thing [or group of things] at a time and the takt time of an optimized print is fixed so the only way to scale is to build a print farm.

Really not trying to shit on your idea but we see people go down these roads all the time and even if they are successful they really do not stick to it because of the limitations, time investment and costs just make it not a practical thing to do. Oh and the carbon fiber thing for pressure vessel idea is not really the greatest idea for a marker. You really need to look into how carbon fiber is currently used in pressure vessels and why they do it the way the do. Carbon Fiber failure is catastrophic with little or no precursors prior to failure. Look up the data around the failure of the carbon fiber submersible that catastrophically failed last summer. There is a lot of professional information provided after the fact why it was a bad idea to begin with.

[JonM]

Just ask the passengers of the Titan how well carbon fiber holds up to pressure... oh, wait.

[Vegabond]

CF can be reinforced, I was thinking of using it as it would have a better seal then a printed part. but even if thats not a good choice, metal tubing is available as well. largely I see 3d printing for the frame and grip

[Grendel]

See that is the thing about pressure vessels and carbon fiber [CF]. They do not make them from CF then reinforce them with something else like, say a metal sheath instead they make the vessel from metal and reinforce that metal structure with spun CF to provide extra strength with little added weight. Sure many parts can be 3d printed and there already are a lot of designs out there (my favorite hopper has a 3D printed shell) so go for it. Hell even design a whole marker. As an academic endeavor I applaud you for trying and especially if you can succeed just be critical of what you want to do and what makes sense especially from a safety prospective.

[Vegabond]

If you are wanting to do this for "shits and giggles", "to see if I can",...etc fine go for it. As you said it has already been done with firearms and they deal with pressures no paintball gun has ever had to deal with, so it is doable. So go have fun and pick the brains of those who can help feed you knowledge/experience.

As SignOfZeta said why 3D printing over conventional manufacturing process. Home/light industrial 3D printing is great for prototyping/one offs but is not an economical solution for making things yet. What are the positives you gain from using 3D printing a marker? Repeatability and specification tolerances are definitely not there especially with a material that is drastically affected by just humidity variation and that is just one variable. 3D printing is not a truly scalable manufacturing process, one printer even optimized can only make one thing [or group of things] at a time and the takt time of an optimized print is fixed so the only way to scale is to build a print farm.

Really not trying to shit on your idea but we see people go down these roads all the time and even if they are successful they really do not stick to it because of the limitations, time investment and costs just make it not a practical thing to do. Oh and the carbon fiber thing for pressure vessel idea is not really the greatest idea for a marker. You really need to look into how carbon fiber is currently used in pressure vessels and why they do it the way the do. Carbon Fiber failure is catastrophic with little or now precursors prior to failure. Look up the data around the failure of the carbon fiber submersible that catastrophically failed last summer. There is a lot of professional information provided after the fact why it was a bad idea to begin with.

my thought process was to give players the ability to make custom and interesting markers.

[Grendel]

Sure, that is fine if you want to invest the time and effort and share. Just be realistic and not expect to really make money if that is your goal. I have purchased 3d printed stuff for Paintball (Rainmaker was one of my sources ) but even with his successful items (Love my Drop 10s) he is out of doing it. He would have to explain his motivation to stop but I can assume it was time/effort vs. cost were big drivers.

[Vegabond]

oh, no, I wasn't looking to make money off of it. I would rather see a community project that players can build, not a money making project.

[JonM]

As to the "why" aspect of 3D printing one-off builds, it's an interesting process if you intend to build a one of one marker and you don't want to sink time and money into building a machine shop. I mainly did my Benchmark style 45 frame on my PGP because I wanted to use the frame it had for another build and I was too cheap to spend $100+ on an original Benchmark slider. I actually enjoy the design and prototyping process, but ask me to start cranking out runs of my designs on a home FDM printer and I'll quickly run for the exit. That's why I typically use Shapeways for people who want my designs. What they can produce on their industrial printers is far and away better than anything a hobbyist could ever print at home with current technology. If it's just for me though, one-off prints aren't such a big deal - they're just time consuming. A single trigger frame will take about a day (provided nothing fails). A full marker becomes a real time sink.

[Trbo323]

my thought process was to give players the ability to make custom and interesting markers.

They basically have that with the emek/etha already.

But again that one is not the valve it's basically just an outer shell that you can print

There's a few other markers that you can do this to the ion comes to mind and perhaps the tm7.

Has anybody printed an automag body yet? Since it's not a pressure vessel it would make sense that it would work the hardest part would probably be holding the feedneck and barrel

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[SignOfZeta]

my thought process was to give players the ability to make custom and interesting markers.

Ask that Walz guy what kind of 3D printer he uses. The stuff is amazing!

I kid, obviously, but I do have a point. If democratizing manufacturing is your goal then go with that idea, keep it first in mind…instead of buying the tool first and then looking for what can be made with it. The OG paintball guns were all made by hand in garages long before CAD and 3D printing existed.

[Mr. Hick]

AtomJaay has already accomplished this, and they work pretty well. I've been shot by at least one of his creations.