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**uv_halo** · 07-14-2023, 05:08 PM

This does open a whole can of worms. First, how much of a sport is paintball? This gets more nuanced and interesting if you put the majority of the player base into the equation (i.e. all the rec-ballers, on natural / minimally groomed fields). I think a lot of folks who don't have aspirations of making it the next X-game or, olympic sport, or as a televised event, wouldn't care if you called it a hobby / sport / activity / game.

When comparing to other sports, like baseball or football, you get a specific league that feeds it with callbacks to pre-league pioneers, etc. Paintball is too fragmented for this isn't it?

Whatever the case, I would be happy if they renamed the paintball hall of fame to the Paintball Industry Hall of Fame. That could even include sponsored players. If and when the player-base consolidates around a given form of play and league that the majority of the players centered around, I would find that time to be appropriate to create a Hall of Fame for it, feeling free to reach back to key players from the pre-history of that format.

**Levi** · 07-14-2023, 05:44 PM

I see "paintball" as an umbrella term that encompasses all things one can do with paintball gear. The professional leagues, rec ball, outlaw, building/customizing markers and so forth all fall into the "paintball" category in my mind. Other than playing some small local tournaments in the early 00's I've been predominantly a woods ball & rec player. I never followed or cared what the professional tournament scene was doing. So for me it makes sense that the Tom Kaye's and Bud Orr's might be in the same hall of fame that the exceptional players would be in.

Food for thought... everyone who has ever played paintball has done so using the products of 'paintball industry.' I'm sure the number who follow the professional sport side of things is much smaller.

**Jordan** · 07-14-2023, 06:23 PM

Who is John Amodea and "Greenspan", and when did paintball get a HoF?

**Painthappy** · 07-14-2023, 10:43 PM

Paintball Hall of Fame? Oh man... Really?

Paintball was invented and built up. Most of us grew up with it. So the inventors were the ones revered. The ones that brought the game to the next level, raised the bar so to speak.

It's akin to knowing the founders of Harley-Davidson for what they did with what they had. We know the founders, but we don't know the names of any motorcycle racers from the 1940's or today even.

You could say the same thing about cars. We revere the model cars, the inventor of these cars, etc, etc. Sure we can name some nascar stuff, but that's because you have a sport to do with something everyone over 16 does. Drives. So out of the 200 million drivers in the USA you're going to get a small percentage to care about a sport about driving. But if you go down to the lower levels, with short track, derbys, etc... We don't know their names. We can name the cars, we can name the makers of those cars, but we don't know those participants.

And why??? The big question right? Because almost no one cares about the participants at that level. It would be like me knowing who's playing this year at the little league field.

Most of the "pros" we have were jokes really. I've seen better players at local fields and played against many of them in the NPPL pump leagues. I loved doing it, but as an event the crowds were never that big, and in the end every league has failed, every magazine has failed, and John has probably received the crown for the most of those.

Don't get me wrong, I love this sport. Been playing forever and enjoy it to this day and hell I would love for it to keep growing. But I'm tired of people pretending it is something it is not.

We all know who won the cheese rolling championship right? https://www.si.com/more-sports/2022/...ion-abby-lampe

**coyote** · 07-15-2023, 01:03 AM

Most of those "industry guys" were players.

30 years ago most of "the industry" was in the garages of those players.

Halls of fame generally have an eligibility rule that begins 5 years after retirement. In general the first generation of legendary players are "only" in their 60's.

The sport is young.

**DocsMachine** · 07-15-2023, 01:48 AM

Painthappy almost has it. The simple fact is, paintball is a recreation. A pastime. It's only barely a "sport", and to most players, it's not much more than a hobby. As such, the players tend to focus on the gear more than the players, and thus the makers and inventors are better known than the "pro" players.

The manufacturers have pushed it as well- in the pre-recession days, with Bob Long and WDP and Eclipse damn near bringing out a new gun each every three or four months. The guns get hyped- faster this, more efficient that, lighter everything else- and the players try to keep up, thinking, knowing, that if their marker was just 7% more gas efficient and 11.75 grams lighter, they could play oh, so much better!

And, of course, the flip side of the situation is there is NO advertising in this sport. And I don't mean "not very much", I mean there's none whatsoever.

There are no magazines, no TV shows, no one reports on paintball games in any newspapers (heck, there are hardly any newspapers left) paintball games are not advertised anywhere except where paintballers hang out, and as of the last few years, there's nowhere to even buy the stuff except online- and even then, only if you're looking for it.

The only advertising anyone does, is the manufacturers advertise their latest markers. That's it. Period, full stop.

I didn't see so much as a single mention of the World Cup last year. Who played, who won, what new gear came out, anything. If they advertised it at all, they did it entirely on Facebook- which reaches a fair number of players, sure, but only the Facebook subset, and only those who follow the WC stats.

There is no 'body' in paintball- like the NFL, NBA or the MLB (or heck, even the Egg Council

)- to advertise for the sport in general. Anyone who spends the cash to advertise, is advertising a product- their markers, their loaders, their paint, their jerseys, their event. No one wastes money advertising for the sport in general.

And, outside of the players, we're seen as "kids playing war in backyards". Basketball players are athletes. Football players are superstars. Even NASCAR drivers are seen as celebrities.

Paintball players are seen as kids playing games.

Doc.

**THE SHOOTIST** · 07-15-2023, 03:56 AM

Who should be in the Paintball Hall of Fame?
The guys who showed up at the fields every weekend, who worked on the field for paint, who put flyers on car windshields by the thousands on their own time just to get the message out that there is a new and exciting sport you can participate in regardless of your lack of athletic ability, the guys who would talk Paintball to anyone who would listen, the guys who took new players out to a park at their own expense, the guys who's toolbox was always open and who always shared everything with other players.

**Chappy** · 07-15-2023, 08:28 AM

John Amodea? The guy who tried to say his testing showed .50 cal shot further than .68 and lied about video evidence that he could never share? Why in the ever living heck do I care what he thinks? He should be in the paintball hall of infamy.

**Painthappy** · 07-15-2023, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by DocsMachine View Post

And, of course, the flip side of the situation is there is NO advertising in this sport. And I don't mean "not very much", I mean there's none whatsoever.

Spot on! This is one of those things that has always kept me scratching my head. Forget spending money, this "sport" relies on players for any sort of promotion. As far as I know the only posts ever made by fields, manufacturers, etc are on Facebook if any place at all, and that's to only their own following. Exactly HOW do they expect to get more people to sign up for an event or buy a product? They're not seeking them out actively. Forget spending money on advertising, no one is doing more than the bare bones basics.

Take EMR for example. Sorry EMR, picking on you because I know you, but this applies to every field out there. Here we have a forum, players, potential visitors and more money coming in, yet they have not advertised an event on this site (or any site, not just here) in the past 10 years that was not done by a player themselves. I use here as an example but you can say this about any paintball related forum or chat area and any manufacturer or field.

And it's free to just post up an event or new product or whatever, yet that doesn't even happen.

I mean, how are you supposed to attract new players / buyers if you don't even try?

...

And shootist is spot on, the average field guy who fixed up kids guns for nothing and helped them play have done more for the sport than any tournament player ever did.

**martix_agent** · 07-15-2023, 01:22 PM

Painthapy, I suspect there's no advertising, because almost nobody who plays paintball is going to drive to an event more than 3 hors away unless there's another attraction to it besides paintball. (friends, once in a lifetime event, etc.). That's what made LL so special; as a game it was pretty generic but it also had a ton of things things to do and see, and everyone's friends showed up from around the country.

Unless advertising is local there's almost no point in putting it out in a national area. My local paintball field paid to "sponsor" a lunchtime radio segment on a local station where they would call out the name/location of the field several dimes a day, and the owner didn't seem to think it was worth the money.

I had another thought about Living Legends. Did it get massive because of the advertising? I remember it being plastered all over the place on pbnation for months before it happened. I found out about because Sean Scott sent me an invitation because I was being a little shit and he wanted to show me how Smart Parts were just normal people.
Living Legends obviously isn't massive anymore but it still attracts. What made it get smaller? I know I quit going because it got almost too big and my friends all quit going also. The new locations are meh for anything besides the playing field.

D-Day was MASSIVE, but I never saw any advertising for it at all; everyone still knew it existed though. That game finally ended because the owners were over it, I think. They kept playing the exact same same every ear, and players grew tired of it. Owners refused to listen to how players wanted something new and fresh. Now they have sold parts of the property, and have much smaller games that only locals show up at.

**DocsMachine** · 07-15-2023, 01:32 PM

On the advertising thing: Years ago, I had something called Project Wonderful on TWB. That was a sort of 'open source' banner advertising system- you didn't have to go through Google Adsense, or any one of the other big web advertisers, you could offer an ad (for anything you wanted) and the individual comic owner could simply accept or decline it. (Say, if it was something the author didn't want to advertise.)

It was quick, easy and simple. When I added it, I expected at least a couple of paintball companies to take advantage of it. TWB was, after all, more or less a paintball comic (maybe a little less so today

) and according to the open-to-view stats of a PW banner, I had upwards of 10K readers. (It's closer to 16K today.)

Not one paintball-related company bought so much as one month's ad. No field, no store, no proshop, no gun maker, no repair shop.

Doc.

**Painthappy** · 07-15-2023, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by martix_agent View Post

I had another thought about Living Legends. Did it get massive because of the advertising? I remember it being plastered all over the place on pbnation for months before it happened.

I would like to say it got big because it was unique. All the big industry names, names of lore, coupled with a scenario game and an NPPL event at the same time? It was huge.

But as time went on, the names stopped showing and the companies stopped coming.

I remember we played the NPPL DC event and the Dye semi truck was there and parked, but never opened or unloaded. As vendors dwindled the draw became less and less for people. Add to that the industry corporate mergers helped kill it.

No longer is the need of 10 tents when 1 big one will do. Ok I suppose... But then some of the stuff just got cheaper and cheaper. Cheap as in quality and build.

Plus now that one company owned 10 (making that number up, but you get my exaggeration) there was less advertising money to be spent. Let's say one company was going to spend $20k in ads for the year. Well with 10, you would have $200k being spread around. Now with one company, you still only have the $20k. They might own more companies but did not spend more. This is why all the magazines folded and paintball news that ran near forever folded. Was sad to see, but there was not enough ad money to make it work.

To go back to the main topic, I suppose we can look no further than real guns.

We know the manufacturers and people that created these weapons. Even if you don't own a gun you know the name "colt" or "smith and wesson", but you don't know any of the professional shooters. And there is actual real money involved in those sports unlike the free gun and a case a paint you win for spending $10k in entrance fees and travel playing in the old NPPL. Was such a great trade off, I can't imagine why it didn't work out.

**ford** · 07-15-2023, 04:40 PM

I can appreciate the historical cataloging of movers and shakers of the game… but this whole ‘Hall of Fame!’ it just has me rolling my eyes for a lot of reasons that have already been highlighted in this thread.

let Greenspan and other ‘pros’ make a BKI hall of fame and then Jack and the PE folks make the British Orderly of chronological infamy.

The HOF is just another paintball gimmick. I can appreciate it as much as a day at the renaissance fair. Or a tournament called the ‘world cup’ that features 90% of teams from one country.

**martix_agent** · 07-15-2023, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by ford View Post

The HOF is just another paintball gimmick. I can appreciate is as much as a day at the renaissance fair. Or a tournament called the ‘world cup’ that features 90% of teams from one country.

To be fair, baseball was doing it long before paintball even was created. I'm also pretty sure when it started, there were teams from more than just Russia playing it in. It was a truly open series.

I'm sure there are indeed players who should be in the hall of fame for competitive paintball, if one exists.

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Paintball Hall of Fame - a question from John Amodea

Paintball Hall of Fame - a question from John Amodea

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