Announcement

**Morgenstern** · 08-10-2023, 02:02 AM

^I don't have figures to back this up but I feel like in the early 00s when the sport was peaking most people were playing and wanted to play woodsball and play war, but the industry focused on speedball for the image reason. Outlaw play was HUGE and I would guess most gear sold was used in an outlaw capacity. Every small town had places where people played. Things like D-Day and ION and the other big ''war'' games are way bigger than any single tournament and were much easier to keep going over the years than speedball leagues.

The fact that airsoft exploded kind of proves this for me. It's what everyone wanted paintball to be when they first heard about it. Everyone is playing Call of Duty at home. People who were maybe interested in trying paintball would see speedball on TV and ask me ''What the heck was that? Is that what you do?'' People bringing speedball (poor) sportmanship culture, and it was a big part of the culture, to woodsball games kind of spoiled things. The industry's obsession with ROF over quality of play also kind of spoiled things. It would be a lot easier to get new players to play a fun war game in the woods than to step on to a speedball field and chances are it would be much easier to get them to come back.

Speedball is kind of like those Japanese motorcycle racer dudes that thought it would be fun to race their vans as a gag once in awhile but then the motorcycle industry just built sport vans and promoted van races and convinced everyone that the motorcycle image was detrimental to the sport and ignored why everyone was there to begin with. I have no idea if paintball would have gone as far as it did without dropping the war game concept but how can you know if the speedball thing was all that was being pushed by powerful industry leaders from VERY early on in its development? Parents hated that their kids wanted to play Mortal Combat, too. They still bought it.

**Refoogee** · 08-10-2023, 04:10 AM

I think what I mean when I say that paintball needs to "bridge the gap" between war game, and sport, is that it needs to embrace a style as its "face" that can appeal to anyone, and that new players could reasonably see themselves playing. That means it needs to be a format that is fun in the woods, and on a more curated field. It needs to appeal to both the milsim players, and the players that want to wear a jersey. That means the electro hopper fed "space gat" needs to be out, because most everything that makes speedball fun, makes woodsball worse. Pods, and high volume fire, makes woodsball terrible. There's too much defensive cover and it makes it hard for players using low end equipment to compete. On the other end, almost everything that makes a real gun better, makes a paintball gun perform worse. We wear masks, an in line stock designed for a cheek weld is terrible for that, as an example.

Likewise, the giant scenarios with vehicles, etc. are straight out. But, we already know that sort of excitement is what really captures peoples attention, moreso than airball elimination matches.

I don't think this is as hard of a gap to bridge as it may seem. For equipment, I think it's easy enough to look right at what Planet Eclipse did with the EMF100, or at some of the things ADN has been doing. Those are mag fed guns made with real paintball sensibilities in their design. That's a good way to bridge the gap, and it's already here.

As for the game itself, the war game aspects can just be abstracted to objective based competition, instead of elimination based competition.You can still have your blow up bunkers, and AstroTurf, but with extra bits. A flag, control points, king of the hill, etc. People can watch that, and get excited, even if they don't play. It gives the competitive aspect its own "scenarios".

Aesthetically? Well, paintball is a shooting sport. Plenty of competitive shooters wear a jersey, they just wear tactical pants as well.

**ford** · 08-10-2023, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Refoogee View Post

I don't think this is as hard of a gap to bridge as it may seem. For equipment, I think it's easy enough to look right at what Planet Eclipse did with the EMF100, or at some of the things ADN has been doing. Those are mag fed guns made with real paintball sensibilities in their design. That's a good way to bridge the gap, and it's already here.

Something about this comment resonates with me. I've never seen a game played on a concept field designed for mag-fed events in mind. I wonder how much more interesting that would be to watch/follow compared to the (boring) speedball play we generally see today.

**uv_halo** · 08-10-2023, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by DocsMachine View Post

While I agree in principle with that, one of the big issues was the land. The sport originally started in the woods, but as time went on, a lot of places found it harder and harder to find undeveloped, wooded land to play on.

Speedball (or airball or other "concept field" terms) made it easier For the woods, you needed a wooded field, but which had parking and space for the safety zone, etc. With a concept field, all you needed was open property- parking was automatic, as was the neutral zone.

It was also better for the spectators, whether visitors or players between games. It was a lot easier to follow the action than it was in the woods. (And, by extension, easier to ref.)

The other side of that coin is that, if the sport had kept the "simulated combat" angle, it would never have gone as far as it did. It's been my personal experience as a one-time field owner and multiple-time field consultant, that there's a LOT of parents out there that strongly disliked the "war games" aspect. Camo BDUs, face paint and a marker that looks like an M-16? No thank you. Purple hockey jersey, blue mirrored lenses and a splash-anodized marker that looks like a sci-fi blaster? No problem!

Paintball naturally diversified, as nearly all sports and most pastimes do. Look at motorcycling- that encompasses everything from motocross, to the Isle of Man races, to aging dentists on full-bagger Harleys. Paintball encompasses everything from one-on-one with single-shot PGPs, to 1,500-on-a-side scenarios that involve tanks, choppers, rocket launchers and fields so large you need a compass and a map.

And that 'diversification' is far more a strength and a detriment.

Doc.

For clarity I'm going to use "Park" as a place of business that hosts paintball and "Field" to describe a section of a park used to play a game, with parks having one or many fields.

Honestly, one of the major problems with the concept of speedball is how it was implemented into the business model. There's nothing wrong with natural diversification but, this isn't what happened in the paintball. A bunch of small bunkers, closely spaced together, on a small field with limited to zero soft cover, is proven to encourage more shooting, and more shooting is more profitable to the park operator, especially for the rentals (who have always had to shoot field paint). In the very early days, like when I first experienced it at "Fields of Honor" in So Cal, 1992, it was just one field left for the end of the day. Of course, some people would gravitate to and prefer this style of play and of course, some businesses should support them but, when park operators took this concept and applied it to every field, wooded or not, that is where the game went wrong. With a smaller field, shorter time limits, and field symmetry, you cut down the number of possible strategies that can be employed for a win.

Eventually, Paintball becomes dominated by folks who only know "speedball" (in the woods or otherwise). They chase off players who want a more tactical style of play. Most people are coming into this game with the idea that they are going to be shooting people in the natural environment (woods or otherwise), not playing a game of long-range tag. Think about all of the newcomers with wild imaginations of paintball versions of almost every type of man-portable weapon: Paintball Flamethrowers, Paintball Shotguns, Paintball Grenades, Paintball Miniguns, Paintball RPGs. They then wonder about the other potential 'weapons' they might see, pulling directly from their frame of reference- war games. They see the utility of camouflage, and they think that a mag fed gun is cool, especially if it has all those accessories that they see in popular culture (scopes, dot sights, laser sights, flashlights, etc). From the late 90s through the mid to late-00s, how were all these folks treated? "silly noob, git a tippmann, don't put tacticool stuff on it, get gud (at speedball), then get a real marker (a double finger electro)". This mindset was so predominant and, persistent that when First Strikes were introduced, very few of the existing player base could imagine a tactical game that employed snipers.

Consider this: Airsoft started in Japan, during the 70s. Airsoft guns were introduced to U.S. Toy Stores (i.e. KB Toys) as early as 1987 (when I bought a Daisy 1911 springer). In many countries, it saw more success than paintball simply due to Joule limits effectively banning paintball. I'm not enough of an industry insider (in paintball or airsoft) to say for certain but, it appears to me that as speedball was taking over paintball, airsoft was rising in popularity (they both entered Google's search history in 2004 with nearly equal popularity but, paintball declined since 2004, while airsoft remained strong in the following years). The question is, how many tactically minded players did paintball lose to airsoft. It's also interesting that while Paintball was very much concerned with the perceived threats to its existence and felt the need to rebrand itself, this never happened with airsoft, at least within the U.S.

**Painthappy** · 08-10-2023, 06:59 PM

I didn't realize this thread was still going, but couldn't it all be solved by having a division for industry folks and one for pro/rec players? Seems simple enough.

Or better yet to just not have it... I mean I'm not in it, so my care level remains low.

**martix_agent** · 08-10-2023, 07:13 PM

What would a division like that look like?

**Cyberpyr8** · 08-11-2023, 10:10 AM

I have a different perspective on this. If I had money and time, I would start a field that would be different than most. I think most fields only cater to the player. They need to do more and make it an outing like bowling, laser tag etc. Having played at several indoor fields and even briefly managing one, I really think we need to come up with some type of indoor game (look at the growing popularity of speedsoft). There are several advantages to that, one being you could put spectator spots around it. Also, you could mount cameras and have it viewed from all angles. Plus, it's indoors so rain, cold, heat don't really matter. Getting a large number of people inside to view might be a (good) problem but it would help with the real issue of not being able to watch paintball as a spectator. The place I managed was a large warehouse building that had 3 fields. It had an elevated viewing area on the side that was pretty fun to watch from above. One I played at in the early 2000's had a single field but it had a glass wall at the end you could watch the games from there. Imagine having cameras above the field and all around. You could watch from an area off to the side and see all of the action, even if it's not for broadcast TV. Sell some drinks and food for spectators (AKA moms and friends hanging out to watch). You could do a mixed format even of bunkers and obstacles to make it feel like a hybrid outdoor course. I see a lot of people come to the field while their friends or kids are playing, sitting miserably in the heat away from the action and unable to feel connected. We're so worried about the players experience, but we all know how much fun playing actually is. It's the non-players you need to cater to and bring into the experience.

The problem you have with any property or building is the customers who sit out in the parking lot and dump trash and shoot guns out by their cars. That was the problem with a few of the fields I played at that were in industrial parks or retail places. They scare off customers of other businesses and make it hard for businesses to keep their leases. But that is a manageable problem. I think there needs to be an evolution in play to make it even more of an event for not only the players, but others who want to watch but not from a single point sideline. Make it more like football or soccer and kids could play while moms and dads can watch comfortably from a lounge. If you could take your kid to go play paintball for 3-4 hours and watch them in AC and have, wifi, a snack bar and drinks it's waaay better than soccer or football. Take it from a dad of 6! But that also helps build the sport for the future. As a business, you make money on the snacks and services you offer and the paint and entry fees help to cover your equipment. The field I managed was attached to a trampoline park and the kids would all go jump and the parents spent money sitting on the side eating and drinking and paying to use massage chairs while being there for hours.

As far as being on TV, I think there's enough coverage on YouTube and other places showing highlights that we don't really need a TV show dedicated to it (do most people even watch TV these days?). We really need to enhance the local experience for non-players and spectators to help build the sport popularity back up again.

**Chappy** · 08-11-2023, 10:28 AM

I am starting a paintball hall of fame. It will be registered in book form with the us copywrite office. Just send me your picture, 1 paragraph bio, and $50 and you are a hall of famer. Who’s in? General Chappy’s Paintball Payers Hall Of Fame.

**martix_agent** · 08-21-2023, 09:43 AM

Replica guns, athleticism and cosplay: Who are the women of airsoft?

https://www.espn.com/espnw/article/38108037/women-airsoft

As the sport of airsoft grows in popularity across the United States, the population of women participants in competitions remains small. And the women who choose to play want to make their presence known on and off the battlefields.

Espn has an article on airsoft. Its definitely taking place of where paintball used to be 20 years ago.

**Old School PBaller** · 08-30-2023, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Refoogee View Post

This has been a really enlightening discussion. It speaks to a lot of the issues that have been plaguing this sport for a long time. I have a slightly different view of things, as someone who has interacted with a lot of not so serious players.

The biggest issue with this sport is its identity crisis. It's not the only issue by far, but it's the largest. There's a massive divide between the game that people get into paintball thinking they're going to play, and the game that they actually end up playing. Think back to the beginning of paintball, the grassoots of the sport. What kind of guns did people shoot, what was the attitude, what was the aesthetic? It was all simulated combat. You got into the game to go out in the woods,shoot each other with paintballs, that simulated a wound that got you out of the game. Like Old School said, people are not interested in watching tourney paintball as it is. They're interested in aesthetics of big games, watching eliminations happen, and focusing on events in the game. I agree, capture the flag would be a good format to play instead of raw elimination, that actually has a focal point for a crowd to focus on.

The problem is, that the game as it developed ended up being so tech focused that the gun was the highlight, and not the game itself. Let's look at how this game is played. What's the best way to get eliminations? Well, we're all shooting smell inaccurate gel spheres at each other, and it's one shot one out. So, speed up rate of fire, and you'll get more eliminations. Faster rate of fire, and more defensive players, is the meta. This makes sense, the most optimal strategy in any game is to deny your opponent as many options as you possibly can, while preserving as many options as you can for yourself, and utilizing those options to win as quickly as possible. Essentially, to maintain as much control over the game as you can reasonably exert. And you want to be able to do this from the get go. The problem is that games that allow you to easily, and consistently, lock down opponents are not very welcoming or fun to watch for outsiders. The skill involved might be substantial, but it has this effect that, as you get better, the game becomes more nuanced to the point that nobody outside of longtime fans understands what the hell is going on. This meta quickly becomes one of the very worst examples of “unappealing meta” I’ve ever personally experienced. Partially because it’s a hyper focused grindpit, but mostly because it’s compounded by cash. Quite literally, the more paint you can go through, the better your odds of victory, given equal skill. That's why the game will always be too expensive. That's why there's no paintball equivalent of a "beer league". Often times, the most optimal way to play a game is not the way that makes the most sense.

Speedball was a fad. It got picked up by accident in the extreme sports scene of the late 90's to mid 2k's, and got left along the way when that fad died. It was the biggest mistake to make speedball the face of the sport. There's a place for it, but it's a niche. Not only did it make a niche way of play the face of the sport, the industry completely abandoned the weekend player.
One thing about this sport that I have noticed, to its detriment, is that it has consistently picked apart, both from the industry and from hardcore players, any grassroots style play. Think back to why people got involved in paintball. It was originally called “Survival Game”. Paintball, much like boxing, or martial arts, or archery, is a “combat” sport at its inception. That’s why so many lower tier markers try to replicate real guns. Why milsim is a thing. Why magfed is increasingly popular. Why so many new players want to be a “sniper” and buy 18 inch barrel, and shrouds, and picatinny bullshit. And while all that stuff I think is stupid, it’s a huge part of the community we just denied. And I do understand why the industry wanted to separate itself, paintball has been impaled on the cross of moral guardians for that “image problem” for a while. But, optics aside, what’s most pertinent, at the end of the day though, is this. Limited paint formats, and I mean LIMITED, like pump and magfed… they’re better games. New players can pick up on it fast. They open up the field immensely, they’re easier to watch. Players can make big plays, they can move, run, flank, it can actually be exciting for spectators because you can get people running for open objectives that can be the games focus point without immediately getting cut down, and it's fun for new players to play. Your options for interesting games open up significantly when you aren’t facing instant elimination from a spray of paint. Paintball grew when it was closer to that ideal for a reason.

There's major industry, advertisement, and field management problems. But, ultimately, the game that weekend warriors play should be the same game the pro players play. Paintball needs to embrace what it is, it needs to bridge the gap between wargame and sport, and it needs to work to nurture formats that aren't just designed to move the most product.

Great post and Spot ON! The Italic and underlined paragraphs are especially on point!

**ameerhamza77** · 04-30-2024, 03:29 AM

John's question raises an interesting point about the dynamics within the paintball community and how recognition is distributed. It's true that in many other sports, the athletes themselves often receive the lion's share of attention and admiration, with the industry figures playing more behind-the-scenes roles.

One reason for this phenomenon in paintball could be the unique structure of the sport's development. In its early years, paintball grew largely through the efforts of dedicated enthusiasts, many of whom were also involved in the industry side of things. These individuals played pivotal roles in shaping the sport, developing equipment, organizing events, and fostering its growth.

As a result, some of these industry figures became synonymous with the sport itself, earning recognition and respect for their contributions. Meanwhile, the players, while undoubtedly talented and skilled in their own right, may not have had the same level of visibility or influence in the broader custom paintball jerseys community.

However, as paintball continues to evolve and gain mainstream acceptance as a legitimate sport, there may be a shift in focus towards celebrating the achievements and talents of the players themselves. Events like Living Legends and initiatives like the Paintball Hall of Fame can help to highlight the accomplishments of players and honor their contributions to the sport.

That being said, discrepancies in recognition, such as the example with Greenspan and the PHOF, can understandably lead to questions about fairness and consistency. It's important for the paintball community to have open discussions about these issues and strive for greater transparency and equity in how recognition is bestowed.

Ultimately, both industry figures and players play integral roles in the paintball ecosystem, and it's important to recognize and celebrate the contributions of all involved. As the sport continues to grow and evolve, finding the right balance between honoring the past and embracing the future will be key to its ongoing success and relevance.

**The Hobbit** · 05-01-2024, 06:02 AM

Paintball has more in common with hot ridding than sportsball. Sportsball while having “specialized” equipment is more about the game play. It doesn’t really matter who makes the equipment and there is only so much variation in it. Also said game play is relatively static, ie there are only so many minor variations of base ball one can play and still call it baseball.

Motorsports on the other hand is diverse and very “equipment” focused. With enthusiasts being brand loyal, to varying extents, to one maker or another. Plus, in hot rodding/NHRA, there is celebration of the innovators that pioneered in garages and basements. Equipment aside the diversity of participation is there. You don’t have one racing league, there are probably hundreds from local dirt track to NASCAR/NHRA races. Plus opportunities for casual participants like autocross are available to I’d guess most people in the US.

Paintball doesn’t have to be and shouldn’t be a one size fits all approach. Unfortunately the “other” game play styles don’t have anyone promoting or building them up. Just guys bitching online about how limited paint play is the way forward. Time Cole is building something with the NXL and like it or not, without someone doing the same for, choose your limited paint style, people are seeing speedball. Not only players but that family walking through the town park during a NXL event wondering what’s going on. So whether you like it or not speedball is just a better format in regard to visibility. It can be setup and played in venues where the public are going to see it.

maybe field owners need to make better efforts to advertise to local potential players. Especially if you are a field owner close enough to a NXL event, get public advertising out to the public. Advertise a lower intensity game play to appeal to people that may have been interested but intimidated by seeing full bore speedball.

**DocsMachine** · 05-01-2024, 07:18 AM

#56 is almost certainly an AI spam post. First-time user, links to a commercial site, and a spammer cut-and-pasted a post over on the Guild in order to post the same link.

Doc.

**Grendel** · 05-01-2024, 07:48 AM

Man, completely missed this thread. Now I will just go back to my corner and continue playing paintball and tinkering and leave the growing of the "sport", the veneration of "idols", wishing it was an acknowledged "sport"....etc. to those who seem to think it is important.

**pillage** · 05-04-2024, 04:57 PM

In all reality the Paintball Hall of Fame, is a funny idea. A Paintball Hall of Shame dedicated to all those past turds of lore in paintball, would make more sense. Thieves, bovine excretement artists, con men, and liars.......That categories could be great.

Announcement

Paintball Hall of Fame - a question from John Amodea

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment