I'm in Pfizer's COVID vaccine trial, ask me anything.

[Shaftski]

I got the covid rash after shot two. 2 days after the shot my whole shoulder area turned red, like sunburn. It went away after a few days.

Past few days (a week after shot 2) I have a new rash on my elbow joints, wrists, and neck area. Doesn't look/feel like skin irritation, more like rash that indicates inflammation. May or may not be related to the shot. Not prone to rashes at all and didn't touch anything odd in the past week.

[boarder2k7]

I haven't heard of that one happening before, very interesting

[Diomedes]

My injection site was actually red for a couple days, too. Didn't feel like a rash or anything though. Looked like sunburn, an oval about 4"x3" centered on the site. Figured it was an inflammatory response.

[Shaftski]

They call it "rash" but mine was kinda the same thing, like sunburn. Wife had it too.

Had to go to doc about this new rash, she's convinced it' unrelated to vaccine and I just touched something I shouldn't have while doing yard work or something.

[un2xs]

Just a news release from my University on post-infection treatment of COVID19. Treatments are slowly being developed.

https://www.k-state.edu/media/newsre...nas-covid.html

[martix_agent]

This is fantastic news, but also not entirely unexpected.

[sniper97]

Hi! This is the 1st vaccine using mRNA, how do we know it is safe? Is it better to get the JnJ covid vaccine, since it is not mRNA. A friend recently said that Israel has stopped giving covid vaccines due to heart inflammation in 2000 patients, Google did not provide any search results.

[martix_agent]

Something like this would be major news.

[Axel]

I'll let you know if I grow any extra digits

[Diomedes]

There have been an elevated number of reported cases of myocarditis and pericarditis. As is often the case, CDC is a great source: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ocarditis.html

It's worth nothing that the vaccine adverse reaction reporting system (VAERS) are self-reported, and the number of confirmed cases is quite low compared to the number of reported cases. For confirmed cases, treatment has been very effective, with few if any long-term effects.

The takeaway is that even if there is a causal relationship between the vaccine and either condition, vaccination is still the lower-risk course of action.

[sniper97]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-sees-probable-link-between-pfizer-vaccine-small-number-myocarditis-cases-2021-06-01/

I did find this.

[Spider!]

I had a couple of covid doh! Moments last week.

One was when my brother in law gave me the vaccine argument that " it has been proven to alter your DNA." Well that's the point, to alter your DNA before the virus does it for you. Even the flu alters your DNA.

The other was a news article about why older vaccinated people are still dying of covid. They are immuno compromised in the first place, and the vaccine doesn't generate a response.

[Spider!]

I guess I'm actually thinking of white blood cell programming, specifically. My father's GB treatment left him with a genetic leukemia marker that they figured out was not actually his.

[Brokeass_baller]

Does cDNA play a role here? Like, I know AIDS can do something with it. I keep hearing that the shot affects DNA, but I don't see how, knowing that mRNA can't act in reverse and enter the chromosome.

[Diomedes]

Yeah, mRNA vaccines literally can't affect your own DNA. There RNA doesn't even get into the nucleus! And our cells don't have the integrases and reverse transcriptases needed to take exogenous RNA and insert it into our own DNA.

There *are* viruses that do that. TONS of them. HIV, Epstein-Barr, HPV...it's a long list. But coronaviruses do not, influenzaviruses do not, and none of these vaccines do.

H1N1 is an interesting case: We actually have samples of the original viruses from 1918, isolated from corpses buried in permafrost. And then of course we have samples of all the flus *after* 1918. That's when we were like 'huh, maybe we should be keeping track somehow'. So because we have those 1918 samples, we can follow that specific lineage's evolution over the last century.

[lhamilton1807]

I had a couple of covid doh! Moments last week.

One was when my brother in law gave me the vaccine argument that " it has been proven to alter your DNA." Well that's the point, to alter your DNA before the virus does it for you. Even the flu alters your DNA.

The other was a news article about why older vaccinated people are still dying of covid. They are immuno compromised in the first place, and the vaccine doesn't generate a response.

Those are interesting topics. I’m not sure the flu alters your DNA - you might want to check on that. I’m pretty sure you’re still genetically unchanged after you get sick with something. Only bacteria actually store viral code in their DNA. We just store antibodies for a while as instructions on what to do if virus X or Y shows up.

I’ve not heard of consistent breakthrough cases - do you have a link to that article? I’d be very interested in reading about that. From what I’ve read, the vaccines don’t make us immortal, they just reduce (not eliminate) the risk of contracting COVID-19, or if you catch it they reduce the severity of the disease. We can still die of other things that are either pre-existing or unrelated.

[lew]

I've got a question for you, and I intend only for level-headed debate: Why is this vaccine necessary?

[BrickHaus]

Im with Lew, the level of sociteial pressure to get this vaccine is unreal. I feel it is great that its now readily avialable, and if you feel you need it go get it, it seems pretty easy to do.


But the fact that its being pushed that EVERYONE NEEDS to get it, is crazy to me. The radio ads, and larg corperation inscentives are equaply unnerving.

I could take my point a few directions from here as I see this whole situation odd, and uncomforting. But I generally dont trust doctors, not only have they proven to simply be product pushers for big pharma(see the opoid crisis we face as a society), they have their own court system in which they can only be taken into litigation through, so good luck suing them when they are neglegant, and ruin your life. I dont get a flu shot, why would I get this new unvetted flu shot?

To me, this is the largest scale clinical trial for the drug companies to ever take place, and people are signing up in droves to get on board. Im worried we are going to see a wave of side effects from this, but long term slowly developing issues. Stuff like cancer, and random infections that arent going ro show theie heads for years to come.

So Id rather personally take my chances with the virus that has a 1% kill rate, vs the vaccine that isnt clinically tested. But the fact that unvaccinated people are told to continue wearing masks is only proving to be punishme t to try to force more vaccines.

At this point, in the U.S., we have 2 types of people, vavcinated people ( supposedly immune and free to run around) and people willing to take the risk, so why the need to keep putting one of those in groups down?

And sorry for my rant. As someone whos worn a mask for 10+ hours a day, 5 days a week at work, Im pretty burnt out on this whole thing. My work has recently allowed unvaccinated people to remove their masks, but threatened termination if unvaccinated people remove their masks. I dont understand it. Feels pretty discriminitory to me, and the tone of society isnt helping. Im just burnt out on this hyper fearmongering crusade.

[Brokeass_baller]

Yeah, I don't understand the mask thing at all. If the vax works, then who cares about the unvaccinated?

I'm not anti-vax at all. But there have been some really crazy side-effects associated with this mRNA one that makes me hesitant. I'm just sort of watching the public for the time being. Not to mention, I've made it this far without catching covid. So, do I really need it? Maybe I'll regret that in the future. I don't know. I'm just watching right now.

[sniper97]

I have not been vaccinated. I had covid end of July 2020. With my next post, there are successful early treatments available that are being ignored. This is the 1st mRNA vaccine ever, I would rather wait. Could there be long term affects? Just had a friend get vaccinated and he was in the hospital for 3-4 days, at one point he was told he had lymphoma.

[sniper97]

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/hearings/early-outpatient-treatment-an-essential-part-of-a-covid-19-solution

Senate hearing 11/20, pre Thanksgiving, biggest concern, why are early treatment options not used?

[Diomedes]

The first reason the vaccine is necessary is that we're in the middle of a global viral pandemic, millions of people have died, and the way to stop it is for everyone who can get vaccinated to get vaccinated. Treatment is fine but it doesn't actually solve the provlem, Preventing infections in the first place is how we end the pandemic, and only vaccines do that.

The second reason is that *millions of people* cannot get vaccinated, many of whom are immunocompromised and therefore at extremely high risk from COVID? What of them? Too bad? No. The way to protect the most vulnable populations is for *everyone* to get vaccinated, preventing the virus from propagating through the population. You've all probably heard the phrase "herd immunity" by now. That's the endgame. Once we hit herd immunity, the virus peters out because it simply can't spread. That protections *everyone*, whether you're healthy or not, vaccinated or not. That *ends the pandemic*.


I'll address of couple of specific points here as well.

I don't get a flu shot, why would I get this new unvetted flu shot?

1. You should get a flu shot, to protect yourself and the vulnerable people from influenza.

2. This isn't "unvetted". The clinical trials involved hundreds of thousands of people around the world. And prior this these specific vaccines, we'd been working on, testing, and vetting mRNA and viral vector vaccines for a decade. The fact is, in terms of side effects and reactions, they're the safest kinds of vaccines we've yet developed.

3. This isn't a flu shot. Completely different technology. Not only do the new vaccines elicit a more robust immune response (leading to more robust protection), they do so with few side effects, because the way the vaccines are made just involves fewer components than inactivated or subunit vaccines.

So Id rather personally take my chances with the virus that has a 1% kill rate, vs the vaccine that isnt clinically tested.

Already covered "isn't clinically tested" above. I would love to know where people got that idea. I'm hoping this one goes away once Pfizer and Moderna get full, non-emergency approval later this year.

But to the first point, don't forget the significant percentage of COVID patients who recover from the acute illness but have significant long-term symptoms. And that over the same time-frame, there are *not* long-term side effects from the vaccines. So you shouldn't be comparing "zero death rate and unknown long-term rate" to "1% death rate". The relevant comparison is "zero death rate and no known long term effects" to "1% death rate and significant chance of documented long-term effects".

But the fact that unvaccinated people are told to continue wearing masks is only proving to be punishme t to try to force more vaccines.

Unvaccinated people are spreading the virus around, of *course* they ought to continue wearing masks. This is common sense. Part of the upside with the vaccines is that you *don't* have to mask anymore because of the vastly reduced change of contracting and spreading the virus. Not zero, but significantly reduced.

At this point, in the U.S., we have 2 types of people, vavcinated people ( supposedly immune and free to run around) and people willing to take the risk, so why the need to keep putting one of those in groups down?

The unvaccinated are not just putting themselves at risk. They're putting cancer patients at risk. They're putting organ recipients at risk. They're putting *my young children* at risk. That's the big thing - consenting adults can take whatever risks they want when it comes to vaccination. But that does *not* give them a green light to put *other people, who cannot consent to the risk, at risk*.

As someone whos worn a mask for 10+ hours a day, 5 days a week at work, Im pretty burnt out on this whole thing. My work has recently allowed unvaccinated people to remove their masks, but threatened termination if unvaccinated people remove their masks. I dont understand it. Feels pretty discriminitory to me, and the tone of society isnt helping. Im just burnt out on this hyper fearmongering crusade.

It's not fearmongering, it's epidemiology. If you don't want to wear a mask all the time (and who does?), the solution to that problem is available in just about any CVS, Walgreens, etc. But if you don't want to do that, then that's a decision you can make, but recognize that you're potentially able to spread the virus to other people, so there are rules in place to reduce that likelihood.

If the vax works, then who cares about the unvaccinated?

Let's start with this: The vaccines work, *really* well. That out of the way, who cares about the unvaccinated? Well, first, how about people who have friends, family, loved ones, etc, who *cannot get vaccinated*, even if they want to? Remember, even if 100% of people who could get vaccinated actually do, there'd still be millions who cannot. Who cares about them? Everyone, hopefully.

But there have been some really crazy side-effects associated with this mRNA one that makes me hesitant.

The rate of side-effects have been lower than most other vaccines, and most haven't been severe at all.

I've made it this far without catching covid. So, do I really need it?

Haven't been in a car accident yet, do I really need to wear my seatbelt?


One more thing I want to note: Almost every COVID hospitalization and death right now are among unvaccinated people. For the most recent reporting interval from Maryland (I forget if that's the month of June, or two week, or whatever), for example, 95% of cases, 93% of hospitalization, and 100% of deaths (and that's not rounded, it's literally 100% of deaths) were among unvaccinated people. In LA right now, every COVID patient in a county hospital is unvaccinated. So at this point, if you are eligible for vaccination, this pandemic is optional. But it's *not* optional for people who can't get vaccinated. Keep that in mind.

Please get vaccinated, y'all. Keep yourself safe, keep the people around you who can't get vaccinated safe.

[Diomedes]

New post because different thing, but Abby and I crossed over to the booster trial, and we both got our first shots this week. Judging by how I'm feeling today, I got the real deal, and my B cells are NOT happy about it. The point of the booster trial is to determine if a booster between 6 and 12 months from the 2nd shot reduces risk of infection compared to just the first two shots.

Read on for some fun biology.

When you get a first vaccine dose, or an actual infection, your body activates B cells, which make antibodies (your body does other stuff, too, but for now we just care about the B cells). That takes a couple of weeks to ramp up, which is why you get sick the first time you're exposed to something. But then you have memory B cells on hand, so the next time...

When you're exposed again, you respond faster - days instead of weeks to pump out those antibodies (thank you, memory cells). But you probably didn't have any antibodies already hanging out, so you're kind of racing with the virus - do you ramp up the antibodies before it gets a toehold or not? So it's possible to get sick after that first dose or exposure, but will very likely be less severe. But! After that second vaccine dose, you make a TON of antibodies, and the thing is they don't dissipate after a few weeks. Instead, the actual antibodies stick around for months, or even years. And *that's* awesome, because it means as soon as the virus gets into your body, it's immediately swarmed by antibodies, which means the chance of getting an infection after that second does is WAY lower compared to just one dose.

In general, the antibody levels will drop off over time. But since we've never vaccinated against this virus before, we don't know what that timeframe is. Is it 6 months? Probably not - it seems like antibody levels stay pretty high. 12 months? Not sure yet, since we don't have very many people 12 months past their second shot. So what we're doing with the booster trial is giving a 3rd dose in that 6-12 month range to determine 1) if that leads to a bump in immune response, specifically the level of protective antibodies present, and 2) if a booster reduces the infection rate among vaccinated people. We'll know soon! And that that'll guide how we design the vaccine regimen going forward.

[Fubarius]

I sometimes wonder if we need to shift the marketing on the vaccines a bit. Right now it mostly Defensive. Get the vaccinated to protect yourself and those around you.

But some people do seem to react negatively to defensive measures. They're "strong", so they don't need protection. Suggesting they do need protection is taken as an insult. Only the "weak" need to be protected. The second part of the current marketing might convince them, but the first part actively pushes them away.

Others are assholes, and of course don't care about other people so the second part has no effect on them.

So lets market vaccines as a strong Offense. This is viral Target Practice. I've already gotten my second batch of targets injected* and my Fully Armed and Operational immune system is all primed up to Viciously Slaughter any poor weak viruses that dare violated my Personal Perimeter. Boo fricken Yah.



*Technically it's instructions for my body to make it's own targets, but you get the idea.

[sniper97]

I have a friend, his wife is a speech therapist at a local hospital, she has applied for a religious exemption,. if denied, she is going to resign. I asked why, her reply was an uptick in stroke patients in the last 3 months, all vaccinated.

Vaccinated are getting covid again, in Israel, 50% of Vaccinated are getting covid again

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bus...e-2021-6%3famp

And in the US

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/17/3-fu...for-covid.html

Bottom line: untested and health risks are unknown. To get emergency use approval, there can not be any other means to treat, this is why early treatments that could save lives are/were ignored. Johnson and Johnson chose to not go with a mRNA vaccine.

[sniper97]

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/new...mpromised.aspx

Deaths from the vaccine...

[Fubarius]

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/new...mpromised.aspx

Deaths from the vaccine...

Dude, did you even READ that article? No where at all was there even a suggestion that vaccines were a cause of death in any of those cases.

That entire article is really about comorbidities, as in preexisting conditions that makes someone more susceptible to diseases anyways. "hypertension, diabetes, heart failure, chronic kidney diseases, chronic lung diseases, dementia and cancer" for example, and that was copy/pasted directly from the article. Also in the article, 40% of the cases studied were immunocompromised. The kind of thing that makes a vaccine, which triggers an immune response, less effective.


Remember folks, everything shared on social media is a lie.

[lew]

Please get vaccinated, y'all. Keep yourself safe, keep the people around you who can't get vaccinated safe.

That, right there, is the key: between the low efficacy rates and the limited clinical testing, the vaccines ARE NOT keeping people safe, nevermind what health risks may arise out of this.

Last year, something like 87,000 papers and studies appeared about COVID. Seems a bit out of proportion when there are FAR more serious diseases to tackle. All those resources devoted to a lame virus with a paltry mortality rate, even less amongst those without comorbidities? We'd have malaria eradicated in no time using a small percentage of those resources.