I'm in Pfizer's COVID vaccine trial, ask me anything.

[Diomedes]

No reasoning with some people. Thank you to everyone who's done the responsible thing and who is contributing constructively.

[Diomedes]

More data. Making the obvious more obvious every day.

From here. Data from UK public health agency.

[lhamilton1807]

Where did that data come from? It looks like a super positive correlation, but it’s an image that was posted to Twitter. Just looking to ensure the sources are solid.

[Diomedes]

Edited with source.

[Axel]

I won't attempt to censor misinformation for several reasons, but suffice to say that if we were to try, a mod could pretty much just go through the thread deleting every post from three or four specific members. I'm super disappointed with you guys, frankly.

Now that the anti-vaxxers have had their say, I'm asking you kindly as a personal favor (not as a mod, yet) to clear off. Obviously no one is convincing anyone else to change their minds.

Oh, and, as a moderator, reminder--no politics on MCB

[Diomedes]

You know, out of politeness, respect, and basic decency, I don’t go sticking my nose in the gun thread in the B&G starting fights about how the 2nd amendment was a mistake and ought to be repealed. Too much to expect that courtesy in the vaccine thread, I guess…

[lhamilton1807]

Gunowners aren't saying that everyone should own a gun. Don't want one? Don't get one.

Some of us take issue with folks saying that everyone should be vaccinated. These vaccines ARE NOT without significant risk, despite what some choose to believe. We've weighed the risk vs. the reward and decided that it does not make sense to receive it. I'm glad it's going well with you, but realize that many people do not share your opinion, and with many good reasons to back that up.

15 pages of posts have been dedicated in this forum to showing how the risk of the vaccines is near zero while the risk of staying unvaccinated keeps you, your community, and especially those who cannot, for medical reasons, get vaccinated in increased danger from the evolving pandemic. If you’d prefer to eschew real science for spewing misinformation and conspiracy, maybe another thread is the best place to spend your time. This thread is for honest discussion about the vaccines. Doesn’t seem like you’re interested in that kind of discussion. As Axel put it, it’s time to clear off.

[Axel]

OK, enough asshattery. Trolling will be cleaned up and infractions/bans issued as necessary. I tried the light touch and apparently that was a mistake.

[Axel]

We are back up, on the original topic. If you've got a question about the vaccines, if you're skeptical, if you don't understand something, feel free to ask. If you're here to crusade against vaccines, argue that Covid isn't real, delve into politics, troll for reactions, or otherwise act in bad faith, from here forward you will get a mandatory invitation to take a break from the forum.

[lhamilton1807]

I’ve got a question. There’s been a lot of back & forth in my home about our young teens (13 &14) getting the jab. Obviously this would be Pfizer only since the others don’t have authorization for anyone below age 18.

How have younger kids handled the vaccine? I imagine there isn’t as much data for this age group since there are so few of them compared to adults. What is the risk of getting & spreading COVID (and/or variants) for the unvaccinated 12-16 age group compared to vaccinated youth? Any particular side effects from mRNA vaccines that would be of concern for younger chaps?

For now I’ve decided this isn’t a hill I’m going to die on. My wife is super reluctant to have the kids vaccinated for COVID-19, although she’s been fine with more time-tested drugs. I’m all for them getting vaccinated, but my kids will *probably* be fine either way, and I’d prefer my marriage staying intact over sneaking off to get the kids vaccinated without her input. I’m sure others can relate in some way.

[Diomedes]

Speaking personally, for our kids (1yo and 3.5yo), we’re more worried about long term effects of covid than the accrue illness (though also obv want to avoid that).

Nothing to worry about as far as side effects for the younger side of the approved ages. We’re expecting approved down to 5 within a month or two. Remember: mRNA vaccines, because they have fewer components then other vaccines, actually have fewer adverse effects in terms of things like allergic reactions, and the “new” part (the RNA) only lasts about 5 minutes in your cells. So def get the kids vaccinated. I’d be happy to have a conversation with your family, if you wanted.

[lhamilton1807]

I’d love the conversation; my wife has kinda dug in on this one. Once there’s full approval or there’s a requirement to prove vaccination to participate in a needed event or program, the conversation will be forced from outside the home. I think it’ll work itself out in favor of the shots, but family dynamics on this one have been touchy.

il def reach out if she wants that outside opinion.

[Magmoormaster]

I have a question, just out of curiosity seeing how I just got the second does of Pfizer about an hour ago.

What, if any, is the difference between the two doses? Is it just small doses of the same thing twice, or are they two different formulas for each dose?

[Brokeass_baller]

Why does the j&j shot only require one dose, unlike these others? Isn't it still mRNA?

[Rusty Brass]

The J&J vaccine is an older type, not mRNA. It uses a harmless unrelated virus to carry the identifiable bits of disease RNA so your immune system will know what to look for. I would assume it's only one dose because that's all that was needed in order to induce an effective immune response - but there are sure to be more in-depth answers than that.

[Diomedes]

Yes, J&J is what's called a viral vector vaccine. It takes a different human-infecting virus, remove it's genes, add in the DNA for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, and have that infect you. From there, it works like an mRNA vaccine, with an extra step in your cells, to make the mRNA from the DNA the vaccine vector brings in. This is still a very recent type of vaccine, I think it's the first such vaccine in use, but they've been working on viral vector vaccines for longer. I'm not sure why it's one dose vs. two, but I'm sure the people figuring these things out have good reasons.

[Brokeass_baller]

I have a question that's not exactly vaccine related, but this seems to be the best place to ask it.

So this new Delta variant, how do we know it's a new strain? What test(s) and study's do they do to track new stains? And is there a test available on a consumer level that could tell an infected person which strain they have?

You know, I thought of another question while I was writing this that'll tie it back into the vax conversation. Does this new strain have the same spike protein that the current vax protects against? If so, what differences would have to be present to deem it a different strain? And why "Delta"? What's the significance of that?

Articles, studies, YouTube videos, etc, are always appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to answer me. I know I just bombarded you all with questions.

[Diomedes]

We know it's a new variant because we're constantly collecting samples and sequencing their genomes. I don't think there's a consumer level test available, but public health agencies are keeping a VERY close eye on which strains are where and what the relative frequencies are. "Delta" because that's just how we name things - greek alphabet. I think we actually have some Lambda now, too, but it's not at all widespread (yet).

[Brokeass_baller]

I'll check that link out. At least I'm being pointed in the right direction. Lol.

How do they collect disease samples? From corpses? Bodily fluid analyses? Voluntary sneezing into handkerchiefs? Lol. I never cared much about this sort of thing until covid, so please excuse my ignorance.

Also, any word on the some spike protein and vax effectiveness with this new strain?

Thanks a lot.

[Diomedes]

So far, the vaccines are doing well against the variants. There's some variation - the efficacy against Delta isn't quite as high as the others, but before people read that and panic, consider 2 things:

1. Most people generate such high antibody levels that a slightly lower affinity doesn't have much practical significance. There are still plenty of antibodies to do the job, even if they are less effective at it compared to the older variants.

2. The dropoff in efficacy is most pronounced over age 65, since it looks like that's where you see a decline in antibodies after 6-8 months. Not a complete loss, but a decline from WHOA THAT'S A LOT OF ANTIBODIES to okay that's still a fair amount. Which is why, for example, in Israel they're doing a booster for over 65s - get those levels back up.

[Carp]

How about another odd Vaccine Question? Its kind related to "Booster" shots... I was given 3, out of the 6, in a series of vaccines. What's the likelihood of me, not get'em thar cooties? I guess you would need to know the specifics, huh? 😋 I left my former employer (ER'd/ETS'd) before, I completed my anthrax series. I was never given the option, to complete them.

Does that have any correlation to, why I am addicted to Phantom and Brass markers? 😒

Oh and do you think, I'll have to get a 3rd shot/2nd booster, for the Moderna series of vaccines? I'm too lazy to go back and read all 10 pages. 😔

[Diomedes]

First, def related to the addiction.

Booster-wise, maybe? Everyone's keeping an eye on antibody levels, and if we see a drop-off in the 9-12 month range, or 12-15 months, or whatever, I could see it happening.

[Diomedes]

Couple of updates:

First, the data are preliminary so far, but it looks like a booster shot does increase the levels of protective antibodies, and that helps against the delta variant. So it's possible it becomes generally recommended once that arm of the trial is complete.

Second, it looks like kids 5-11 will be approved within a month or two, with kids down to 6 months following a few months later. That's the real game-changer - once basically everyone is eligible, cumulative vaccination rates will go through the roof, and we'll probably be able to hit herd immunity.

And third, all of that stuff aside, it sure looks like you standard two shots are doing a good job protecting against all of the circulating variants, even delta, despite being more transmissible. Even with higher transmissibility, break-through cases are extremely rare, and almost all deaths are in unvaccinated people, so those breakthrough cases tend to be on the mild side. The reason seems to be that delta likes to hang out in the nose, so it's easy to spread, but when it gets down to the lungs it gets swamped by antibodies and can't do much damage. If you go back a couple of pages you can find a long post on why a virus would evolve to be more transmissible as a pandemic progresses, and this is more evidence for that trend. Which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing. It means we're making it harder for the virus, so it's adapting by becoming more transmissible. That means we're winning. Slowly but surely.

[JonM]

How long after initial immunization will they recommend a booster shot? Since I was in phase 1A of the rollout, my vaccination is now nearly seven months old. Is it as effective now as it was early this year?

[flyweightnate]

Is a Moderna/ Pfizer booster recommended (or even available) for those of us that got the J&J shot out of the gate? I'm seeing that J&J is 66% effective in one study, 95% in another...

[Diomedes]

I don't know what the mix-and-match protocol will be, but I'm guessing it won't matter - the pfizer and moderna shots are pretty darn similar. My guess is they'll say you can mix, but that's just a guess at this point.

The data that have been released "officially" (so like not random people doing antibody tests) show that at 6 months the levels are still really really high. Like, I think it's that anything over 0.8 something - I forget the units - parts per million, micrograms per milliliter, I forget, but whatever - anything over 0.8 is "you have antibodies" and people are testing at like 1200, 1500, even over 2000 six months out. And the dropoff is time-dependent. It differs for every vaccine, but it's not just gonna collapse overnight. So we should be pretty confident that given what we know about levels at 6 months, protective antibodies should persist for 8, 10, probably even 12 months, although the levels at, say, 10 or 12 months might indicate a booster vs. Delta and any other variants that are different enough that the antibodies don't target it as effectively.

In the booster trial right now, they're only looking at people at least 6 months out from their 2nd shot to see exactly what the timeframe is where the booster helps, if at all. We don't know the answer yet, but we will in a couple of months, if not sooner.

I have no idea how all this impacts J&J. For what it's worth, J&J is less effective at reducing the risk of infection (still really good, just not *as good* as pfizer or moderna), but importantly, it is basically just as good at reducing hospitalization and death. And that's what matters, at the end of the day. If we turn this thing into a mild flu or a bad cold...that's actually okay.

[un2xs]

Kansas Governor Kelly has directed that mask again be worn in all state buildings. KSU indoor mask mandate went into effect today. We are apparently one of the hot spots in the state.

Gee, I wonder how many people will be looking at me funny now when I wear my mask in public indoor spaces? (I started again when I saw the curve starting to go up again... I don't really care what others think. I have had my shots, but I go everywhere on campus. I do not want to be a one person spreading center.)

[Jonnydread]

Right there with you man. Some folk get real up in arms about it, but it's really just not a big deal to slap a pice of cloth on your face while you're around other people, it just isn't.