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What DOES matter...?

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    What DOES matter...?

    The more people you ask, the more you will be told that barrels are BS. A tube is a tube, pick the one you think is the prettiest.

    I have found this to be true of bolts, as well. With the main exception being that the material matters for things like reducing reciprocating mass, some materials swell from absorbing oil... but venturi vs open face bolts just don't seem to matter anymore. Nobody bothers using venturis as marketing hype, and nobody wastes their time denouncing the bolts with or without a venturi. It's almost like a bolt is a bolt.

    Springs are springs. Some materials and manufacturing methods produce more durable springs, but their functions all remain the same.

    Valves... this should matter, right? When looking at, say, poppit valves, you can see the whole spectrum of design principles. Valves with tiny ports, valves with medium to large ports, valves that have entire halves removed, angled ports, flared ports, square ports, thin stems, fat stems, flat stems, no stems, onion cupseals, ball cupseals, tophat cupseals, flat cupseals, too! And some perform better than others, but all can be made to perform well with the right combination of supporting parts.

    That last sentence can be said about most things, I suppose. However, you have this highly recommended and overall respected valve, right? And if you were to wash away the "AKALMP" laser engraved on the side, it is literally indistinguishable from a stock Spyder valve. The price tag should include more than laser engraving, but what did it change that you can't do yourself with a Dewalt drill? Does it have a "burst pocket" like the PPS low turbulence valve? Is the aforementioned burst pocket pure BS snake oil marketing hype?

    I look at Impulse valves and see that they have angled and flared ports... probably because of their massive size, machining these angled features becomes less expensive. But I have found it on 11/16th valves, as well, even of relatively unpopular aftermarket valves. Whether or not this is a desirable feature, or something that has quantifiable benefits is up for discussion. The most recommended valve for Autocockers is the stock valve. Which is a plug with perpendicular holes drilled through it... literally nothing more.

    I ask because in the automotive world, these things freaking matter. Still talking about fluid dynamics, but a valve isn't a valve, a spirng isn't a spring, the shape of the ports matter very much, the size of the ports matters very much, the angle of the ports matters very much... people pay good money to have every little transition port matched. Speaking of good money... you can get a SET of v8 heads ported for ~$1000, and that's 16+ ports to hand polish. How do people sleep at night charging so much for paintball markers when they only have one valve instead of 16? I guarantee you that mass produced Luxe 1.6's or whatever don't get the TLC Tony Mamo gives to his cylinder heads.

    This is meant to be an ongoing discussion... I have more on my mind, but I am at work.
    If you need to talk, I will listen. Leave a message and I will call you back as soon as I get it.
    IGY6; 503.995.0257

    #2
    Here are my 2ct ... Base mostly on my experience ...
    ​​​​​​That being said, I have not owned any high end electro newer than ~2010 ...

    barrels:
    Quality matter ... Kinda ... A missaligned/bent barrel won't work too well. Efficiency is more what you want to change with a barrel than accuracy ...
    so a nice and straight barrel is all you need, the rest is look/sound signature and possible rollout.

    Springs:
    A spring is a spring, probably by the same people anyway ...

    The valve size/porting:
    The question should stop at CO2 Vs. HPA
    HPA needs larger port than CO2, after that you probably won't see much difference unless you shoot fast and starve the gun. I can see this being an issue with high-end modern electro.

    A lot of things gain value with a little engraved name on it, as a consumer you can make your decision to buy it or not. Personally, I feel like quality finish and machining tolerances plays a big role. And I would never pay the kind of $$$ Bering asked of modern electro with a $5 board inside ...

    It's quinda short, but I'm at work too. May add more later ...
    Love my brass ... Love my SSR ... Hard choices ...

    XEMON's phantom double sided feed
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    Comment


      #3
      Adjustability is one, Rocket valves, for example.

      This is anecdotal, but I do notice that a venturi-style bolt will quiet some guns down. I had an open-faced delrin bolt in one of my Snipers and swapped it out with a metal ANS venturi and the sound signature quieted down significantly.
      💀 PK x Ragnastock 💀

      Comment


        #4
        I've always wondered how/why the techt bolts worked? I know some of their stuff is just snake oil/a downgrade from stock, but both their own and 3rd party tests have shown their bolts to be effective...

        Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

        Comment


          #5
          Paintball isn't that different from automotive aftermarket or any other aftermarket for that matter. Most everything sold is snake oil. I don't even think that paintball gun prices are that out of line given the relatively low volume of things and precision required. Cycling is my other hobby so there are $12-15K road and mountain bikes. So getting close to cost of entry level car. There's also $4K wheels - just molded carbon rims, some machining for hubs, spokes, and cartridge bearings. On MTB side, $1K+ suspension forks are pretty common. Compared to all this, paintball isn't that bad especially since it's so niche. At least a $1600 paintball gun has electronics and some precision parts. Most carbon fiber bicycle frames are pushing $2K and they don't have any moving parts.

          The aftermarket industry for most things is mostly marketing. So much stuff has been made for cars that doesn't work at all and it gets sold because people don't understand fluid dynamics or science for that matter. Even in your example about porting/polishing valves, that doesn't work on every car but every shop that does it will happily take your money even if they know it won't work. Or they sell intakes that look pretty but underperform OEM. People still buy them.

          I think the things you mentioned still matter since fluid dynamics hasn't changed... But as with most things, modern technology means they have been accounted for in OEM design. I started cycling in the '90s and everyone put aftermarket parts on their bikes because they were lighter and "performed" better. Same with cars - we built turbo kits, machined custom suspension parts, all that. Same with paintball guns. But now a stock anything is just light years better than anything we cobbled together. Everything has just been optimized. Right now, most cars are turbocharged so why bother with porting valves and enlarging the throttle body when you can just turn up the boost through ECU. Same thing for cycling, they've already integrated all the parts so anything I change actually likely reduces performance. And with a modern paintball gun, just pick your barrel and maybe adjust the board settings.

          I'm on the fence about the changes. On the one hand, I like that I can just enjoy whatever I bought. It's nice to play all day and not have your gun go down. It's nice to know that your bicycle handlebars are carbon fiber and won't snap on you like the crazy light aluminum one did. It's nice to have a fast car with warranty and so on. But I do miss the tinkering and engineering to some degree.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Toestr View Post
            I've always wondered how/why the techt bolts worked? I know some of their stuff is just snake oil/a downgrade from stock, but both their own and 3rd party tests have shown their bolts to be effective...

            Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
            I don't know. I do like their bolts, although I don't currently own one. Part of it probably goes back to what Jonnydread was saying about the venturi reducing sound signatures. But the rest of its efficiency and whatnot, I can't explain. The tapered nose of the bolt is just to reduce clipping the next ball in the stack, and probably has little affect on performance.

            And literally, what else is there? It's just a stick of delrin (or similar)... lots of manufacturers have used that same type of venturi design without being touted for their accomplishments, what did TechT do differently? Did they do anything differently, or just market it better? Maybe they just actually did the tests to back up their claims, whereas everyone before just claimed that these design principles were beneficial...?
            If you need to talk, I will listen. Leave a message and I will call you back as soon as I get it.
            IGY6; 503.995.0257

            Comment


              #7
              Spring is a spring I'd agree. Barrels I'd argue the tighter the tolerances the more efficient and usually the more accurate it is. Ported vs unported there is a huge difference in sound signature.

              Valves I'd say it depends. Obviously some valves seem better suited for specific uses or provide tangible benefits like lower operating pressure etc. I will admit I appreciate when a manufacturer produces a valve kit that includes springs so the tuning is already done. CCM is great for this. CCM valve kit set your regulator at 300PSI and two turns in from flush on your IVG or what have you and with a good paint to bore match you're right around the 280-300fps mark without too much work required at the chrono.

              When it comes to bolts I argue some designs are more efficient than others and if nothing else the light bolts (especially in a pump gun) lower the pump stroke quite a bit or if the bolt is delrin I find smooth out the stroke. When it comes to shooting more quickly reducing weight is a huge bonus due to reciprocating mass being lowered resulting in generally increased accuracy.

              That in mind it all comes down to is a specific valve,barrel etc worth it to you for whatever reason. For me I find that a good barrel is worth the money over the stock one that comes with most guns, same goes for valve upgrades or bolts. Now something like a lever locking feedneck or a regulator etc I don't see the point in upgrading. Once my hopper is on my gun it's not coming off until the end of the day for the most part and when it comes to regulators we're at a point where the reg that comes with most guns is as good or better than aftermarket so no real need to upgrade. That in mind do I have my preferences when building a gun? absolutely.
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              Comment


                #8
                after a decade of testing, the only thing we ever found that makes a difference to accuracy, and thus effective range ... is paint quality. FPS consistency matters some, but 90%+ of markers can deliver FPS consistency that it will no longer have an effect on accuracy.

                buy better paint, you will hit the target more. it really is that simple.

                Comment


                • Falcon16

                  Falcon16

                  commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Gordon! Welcome back brother! Been wondering what's been going on with your life lately.

                • Olsson

                  Olsson

                  commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Wait what? Is that a trick question? He's been busy driving Miatas, of course.

                #9
                It really depends on what you're looking for.

                Barrels DO matter, just not for what most people think they do. Unless the barrel is complete crap, it will not affect accuracy. It will, however, affect efficiency and sound signature. Different porting patterns, lengths, materials, etc, all make differences in various ways , just not accuracy.

                Bolts can matter, but again not for accuracy. Lighter bolts will decrease kick, more or less o-rings can affect efficiency, material will make a difference, etc. Basically just reiterating what you already stated.

                Springs can matter, in the sense that lighter or heavier springs will change the way it shoots. All other things equal, heavier springs will generally lead to more kick, lighter springs will be smoother, etc. Lighter springs will also be gentler on paint, and if it's a pump will obviously lead to a lighter pump stroke. They'll most obviously make a big difference to operating pressure. As far as brands are concerned, it won't matter much but spring rates are definitely going to vary from brand to brand.

                Valves can make a HUGE difference though. Since you mention stock autococker valves, we'll look at cocker valve specifically. The stock cocker valve is generally the recommended, but keep in mind that the stock valve we recommend is the 2k+ stock valve. It took design cues from several years worth of improvement. And even then, it's recommended because it overs good performance, not the best. They're also easier to set up than others. But Shocktech valves, Macdev valves, and AKA valves are demonstrably better at getting to lower pressures and higher efficiency. Getting a stock valve below 250 PSI is not especially easy. I've never done it. But the three I just mentioned will get into sub 200 PSI ranges with the proper tuning. Now compare that the valves that came in early 90s cockers, and the difference is massive.

                I'm not nearly as familiar with the AKA valve on for spyders, but there are certainly differences between it and stock. Much larger inlet ports, no hole on the bottom, and obviously a differently shaped cupseal. The shape of the cupseal makes a pretty big difference on its own.

                Comment


                  #10
                  Originally posted by cockerpunk View Post
                  after a decade of testing, the only thing we ever found that makes a difference to accuracy, and thus effective range ... is paint quality. FPS consistency matters some, but 90%+ of markers can deliver FPS consistency that it will no longer have an effect on accuracy.

                  buy better paint, you will hit the target more. it really is that simple.
                  WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT CP IS BACK?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

                  I don't even care about the double post. This excites me greatly.

                  Comment


                  • Jonnydread

                    Jonnydread

                    commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I read this as Custom Products and was really confused for a moment.

                  #11
                  I should have specified that spring rates do indeed very much matter.

                  I was simply saying that springs serve the exact same purpose, regardless of their original intent or the manufacturer... if it is plus or minus the correct spring rate, and it physically fits... then it will probably work. You can use springs for Marker A in Marker B or replace the springs in Marker C with springs from Ace Hardware... it's all the same. Or at least it's all the same within the same spring rates and general size.

                  I have used the spring from a mechanical pencil as a valve spring. It's not rocket surgery.

                  As for better paint being the main thing that matters most... this is probably true. No barrel or super efficient valve or uber consistent regulator is going to be able to correct for piss-poor paint.

                  Better paint does usually require a less violent action for it to survive the loading process. This usually means that the valve matters, because lower operating pressure tends to be more gentle on paint. Even without specifics, we are starting to establish a hierarchy of what matters.

                  Shooter mod>paint>valve>barrel/bolt...?

                  Barrel and bolt are probably about equal in how useless they are. Lol. That's not entirely fair, as they both can absolutely affect efficiency and other aspects that are undoubtedly important when considering the overall combination of your build giving you the results you desire. They just barely matter more than your grips or how heavy your trigger pull is.

                  Even valve, itself, probably is not that important compared to the operating pressure of the entire system. Poppit or spool, doesn't matter, so long as it is capable of operating at a pressure that can handle quality paint. It doesn't matter if it's just an unmolested stock valve, or an expensive aftermarket valve, or just a stock valve modified with a Dewalt drill. If you are capable of shooting good paint with it, then you have the right valve.

                  So....
                  Shooter mod>paint>pressure/valve>barrel/bolt...?

                  I don't know why I keep organizing this into a hierarchy... that isn't the intent of this thread. It has already been brought up, but I would like to reiterate that today's technology has pretty much perfected what we are going to see within the limitations of our industry. Whether you want a poppet or spool, you can find a well put together, efficient, and reliable marker. I am much more of a tinkerer... I like, prefer rather, to modify my markers. And this discussion is more along those lines. What matters when it comes to upgrading a marker.

                  That kind of separates all the new Luxe 1.6's and the other spacegun junk, I mean junk, wait sorry, whatever newer markers are called... I am more interested in markers that have aftermarket support. Aftermarket support that includes more than colored grips and eye covers. Lol.
                  If you need to talk, I will listen. Leave a message and I will call you back as soon as I get it.
                  IGY6; 503.995.0257

                  Comment


                    #12
                    From a fluids guy...

                    Valves and bolts will affect primarily sound and efficiency, and sometimes the ability to handle fragile paint. The same amount of energy needs to get to the paintball; it can get there really fast and all at once, slowly over time, or so slowly that it's still adding energy after the paintball is out of the barrel. Similarly, it can get there easily with minimal losses (turbulence, friction, momentum changes) or be tortured with corners and area changes.

                    The Tech T bolts typically torture the air a bit to soften its hit on the paintball, and also the sound signature leaving the barrel. Some of what they do is pretty clever, in that there's better flow than an oldschool venturi design.

                    The Diamond Labs valve in my Spyder has a huge flow area with a nice transition in; it's running at a low pressure and short dwell so it's actually quieter than my Revvy, as long as the barrel is long enough to catch all the air that comes through the valve.

                    Is it more accurate? Nope. But the J&J barrel is more accurate than the janky stock barrel, especially with good paint.



                    There's more to shooting a paintball than accuracy. Otherwise we'd all be shooting the same old Spyder.

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                    Comment


                      #13
                      Originally posted by flyweightnate View Post
                      There's more to shooting a paintball than accuracy. Otherwise we'd all be shooting the same old Spyder.
                      QFT

                      That's the thing a lot of people (especially here) don't seem to get about the modern high end guns.

                      Comment


                      • Falcon16

                        Falcon16

                        commented
                        Editing a comment
                        There is a reason I want to buy a shocker CVO and this hit the nail on the head. fast,smooth,efficient. My GoG eNMEy is pretty efficient and quick but the CVO is a whole other level. that said it'd be a speedball or possibly larger scenario game gun.

                      #14
                      the power pulse isn't what breaks paint in most cases, its the loading cycle. tom kaye showed that the power pulse of high or low pressure guns always was somewhere in the 90-120ish PSI (this is off the top of my head, remember things from years ago).the loading cycle is what breaks most paint, not being hit by the power pulse, yes this includes "barrel breaks" which are mostly balls that have cracked in the loading cycle, and then are obliterated by the power pulse (PE has some great videos on the subject), but the loading cycle was really the issue. obviously stack alignment, bolt geometry and motion profile and loader force and profile make a bit difference here.

                      in my 15 odd years of playing the best paint i ever shot i shot plenty fine without breaks from an angel LCD, high pressure. YMMV.

                      i mean, last time i played it was with an azodin, so yes, you can go and play with an old spyder ...

                      Comment


                      • 440SUPERCOMMANDO
                        440SUPERCOMMANDO commented
                        Editing a comment
                        i have shot redemption pro, defy 3, 4 star, 5 star, wpn elixer, and whatever HK calls their purple shell yellow fill tourney ball out of my 98. all with nary a problem. 14" ACI zero gravity barrel. the over bore matters in this regard, i think. but literally 800-1100 psi, hpa/co2, made/makes no difference.

                        all that said, i am a fan of over bore unless you are looking for efficiency or roll our prevention. major side benefit, here in the south as the day heats up and paint swells, or gets misshapen, a .691 cannon bore dgaf that your paint is now soft/sticky/square!

                      #15
                      Mmm, generally speaking I agree with that. I strongly question the validity of the Tom Kaye's breach pressure test for a number of reasons. IIRC he only tested mags, which eat up a lot of the power pulse's potential energy by pushing the bolt forward. I almost guarantee that if you did the same test on a high pressure spyder you'd get different results. I also strongly question one's ability to get an accurate pressure reading of the power pulse. I know he used some fancy momentary gauges or whatever, and in fairness I only have a tertiary understanding of mechanical engineering and thermodynamics (I study architecture). But I just don't see how you'd get a solid reading from air moving as fast as it is.

                      Additionally, I have had so many experiences [anecdotal of course] of hand loading absurdly brittle paint into a gun, where loading fractures can be completely taken out of the equation, and still get barrel breaks. Even in my CS1 or other modern electros. I think there definitely is a point where the power pulse will rupture the ball, but 9/10 times I agree that it's usually another factor. I don't think it can be argued that STBBs are rougher on paint than electropneumatics. The power pulse matters much less than the velocity of the bolt moving forward.

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