What DOES matter...?

[scottieb]

I think quality matters.

That's why I like the old AKA stuff for Spyders. The quality and tolerances surpass every other product of the era. And I disagree that a stock Spyder bolt looks identical to a Tornado valve. There are differences. My Black Widow (#16) with shoot @ 275psi on co2 - all AKA goodies there.

[DavidBoren]

Don't mind me. I just like casting shade on AKALMP because everyone around here worships AKA as all that is good in paintball. I don't have a problem with anything AKALMP makes, I know it has a well deserved reputation... blah blah blah. I refuse to buy it just because everyone else likes it so much. Lol.

[cockerpunk]

he used pressure transducers with a millisecond sampling speed and he tested more than mags. i remember off the top of my head cockers, HP angels, and the matrix.

i mean its pretty easy to get there from first principles as well. its the same mass being accelerated at roughly the same time scale, means force is going to be pretty similar. force is just pressure and area, and the area is the same, so the pressure is gonna be pretty similar. lower pressure itself isn't going to make the gun easier on paint. reducing loader force, and keeping the ball stack vertical and preventing clipping and roll back will help a gun be nicer on paint far more than dropping its operating pressure.

anyway, the question was what does matter, and the answer is ... to what?

[Magmoormaster]

Ah, I didn't realize he had tested so many guns. It's been at least a decade since I read those.

But don't LP guns operate slower than HP guns? Or more accurately, isn't the power pulse longer in duration with the whole more volume thing?

Not arguing, like I said this isn't exactly my wheelhouse. That's just always how I understood it.

[cockerpunk]

maybe, we did find that spool valve guns tended to like a bit longer backs than did poppit valved guns, indicating that the power pulse was probably a bit longer. i recall in toms data the mag at 550psi OP had a lower peak breach pressure than the ~200psi impulse did. so while OP may reduce peak power pulse force in some guns, it doesn't mean it always will. likely the valve opening characteristics are more important here than anything else. either way, lower OP doesn't signal that the gun is gentle on paint, because the loading cycle is still dominate.

gotta go fix my deck, chat with you guys later.

[DavidBoren]

anyway, the question was what does matter, and the answer is ... to what?

To you.

This is a discussion of opinions on what matters.

Your measure of success may be accuracy. Somebody else may judge all things by reliability.

I didn't want to steer the discussion in any one particular way by limiting it to just efficiency or accuracy or whatever.

[nerdcore]

At this point, all the top dog manufacturers have figured out what works well and what doesn't. The tech has come such a long way that now companies are redefining what is entry level. Emeks as rentals? It's getting harder and harder to justify being self-equipped to newer players.

So I don't really focus on what actually matters in terms of what makes this piece or that piece good. I trust the experience of the engineers behind the products on the market, and only look at aftermarket from a personal preference point of view.

Am I trying to make this marker different somehow? Then sure, I'll buy a new part for it. Am I trying to make it better? Absolutely not.

[skinnyfatguy]

Girth... let's face it, .50 caliber just isn't going to satisfy most people.

[DavidBoren]

It's why paintball is better than airsoft... our balls are bigger.

[XEMON]

The answer will be different between older markers and new, out of the box ...

New stuff, it won't matter too much except aesthetic.
Older stuff, I think was pretty well discussed.

We're you trying to make a general conversation or do you have a few things you're trying to figure out about a particular project/marker?

[DavidBoren]

The answer will be different between older markers and new, out of the box ...

New stuff, it won't matter too much except aesthetic.
Older stuff, I think was pretty well discussed.

We're you trying to make a general conversation or do you have a few things you're trying to figure out about a particular project/marker?

More just general conversation... see what makes other people tick.

Lately, I have become kind of overwhelmed with the bull$#!+ I have laying around. My normal methods are not sparking anything interesting or creative to do with all these parts... so I am seeing what other people find important, how others prioritize their work, and maybe I can approach this pile of BS from another angle.

It's not any one particular build I need help with, it's a whole new gamelan for cleaning up my mess. Lol.

[Lt. head-shot]

I think what matters is... do you have fun with it.

If the answer is no, sell it, and try again. (Tis the MCB way)

A gun can be the "best" thing ever but if it stays in the gearbag because you have more fun with something else, then its not really the "best" is it?

[DavidBoren]

This approach has not yielded acceptable results for me, thusfar. I have fun playing paintball... I have successfully fended off someone with a stick, when they had a semi-auto. I have fun with ER2's stuffed full of 3D printed nonsense. I have fun with cheap Spyder clones.

And so all this crap stays in my gearbag. I am swimming in this bull$#!+, and I need to get rid of it... despite my ability to have fun with it.

Dangerously, I have fun just dicking with stuff late at night in my apartment. Instead of going to sleep, let's switch grip frames on these Spyders... I haven't played with either in months, probably won't ever play with either again outside of a testing match after sitting down at the chrono station. I have boxes of crap I have purchased, taken apart with something in mind, then left disassembled... now I have a box of bodies, a box of bolts, a box of valves, a box of strikers... it's freaking madness.

I could just start assembling $#!+, in the order I pull parts from their various boxes... random Spyder 1 through random Spyder 4,5,6?

I could just sell boxes-O-bull$#!+, but what's the fun in that?

[Lt. head-shot]

My post wasn't particularly a response to your last post, having too much stuff is definitely an issue and there are other ways to combat that. Though for me, finding out what I have the most fun with usually helps cut through the stuff I have hoarded "because its good to have."

I was meaning in regards to the first post. I've seen guys buy $1500 markers every 2 months because someone claimed the newest, latest, greatest thing was the "BEST". It was all marketing hype, and while I've had many markers, and many expensive ones, its the ones that truly spark joy that I find grabbing out of the gearbag and playing with. So those are my "best" guns. Whenever I get wrapped up in what is "best" I end up selling stuff I DO like and hate myself for it later.

Example - I bought a warp fed automag a few months ago. Have always loved the concept of warp feeds, and for laying down mechanical "ropes", it was fantastic. And by all logic it was perfect for the setup I "thought" I wanted. But when I finally took it out to go shoot, I hated it. I had forgotten how much I hated the trigger pull on mags, the sound, the feeling, weight/efficiency, etc. I had no fun with it. I could still shoot it, but it wasn't fun. So I sold it and bought something else. Not saying that this method is for everyone, and sometimes the "logic" of it all has to make sense (which is why I still keep an Emek around).

As for actually getting around to selling stuff, that's up to you. Big boxes are nice for less trips to the post office!

[flyweightnate]

I'm glad CP brought up the "power pulse" topic. I think it's important.

Keep in mind that energy is (math here) essentially the integral of force, that is, the amount of time the object is under the force. (Physics folks, I'm gonna play fast and loose with units and vocabulary so hang on.) A 1psi push for 100 inches of barrel will do the same as a 100psi push for 1 inch of barrel, to oversimplify.

If you come out of the gate with 100psi on the breech, and keep pushing 100psi after the paintball leaves the barrel, that extra energy is noisy. And wasteful.

I think an ideally designed valve starts low, ramps up linearly to whatever is needed to get to velocity in a 5" (or 8") control bore, then stops cold to eliminate waste.

Starting low means gentle acceleration. Ramping up in a linear fashion ensures even loading (which begs the question, what's important to the paintball, the acceleration or the jerk or an even higher order? But I digress.), similar to the way you want even loading on the chord of an airfoil or the blade of a turbocompressor. Shutting off at the perfect time would conceptually mean no expansion left when the paintball reaches the muzzle, for a silent, undisrupted departure downrange.

That said, that leaves us with a very small valve, that operates really slowly, and a very, very long, stepped or tapered bore barrel. There's always a tradeoff.

The TechT hush 'cocker bolts have that unique annulus behind the venturi face. My theory is that it captures the short valve dwell, lets it expand a bit, then throttles it through the venturi. The short dwell is doable with a sprung poppet, but the bolt stretches it for a softer onset and longer push. I bet it does poorly in a short barrel, compared to a stock bolt. But I'm also speculating. But I also mess with CFD at work, which gives you a feel for how fluid moves.

All that to say... air is complicated. So is energy. And physics. And the Navier-Stokes equations. And here we are, building optimized pneumatic conveyance devices as a friggin hobby. We're just weird.

GO TEAM!

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[DavidBoren]

What was it that vented low pressure through the bolt before dumping the chamber? The Torque? I need to go study my operation animations, again.

How the heck would one control the valve to release slow and low, linearly ramp up, then shut immediately? That sounds like a variable solenoid valve with real time control over its own input pressure... that's some NASA-type $#!+, not something available in a Clippard catalog.

Is that controlled opening the entire purpose of the lever in the LVR?

[Magmoormaster]

The mini/axe kinda sorta does that.

What matters most to me is reliability, then fun. I want to be able to pull a gun out my bag, throw a tank on it, chrono, and go play. Any deviation from that just annoys me at this point. I don't play all that often anymore, and I can tech guns any time I want. I'm there to play, not to fiddle. After that, I want the gun to be fun. For example, I've bought and sold a handful of modern electros over the last 5 years, ranging from a DM, an Ego, to a DP G3. I finally landed on the CS1 because it actually felt right, not to mention having the reliability (see above). As another example, I could shoot an emek for mech play, but I don't. It certainly qualifies in the reliability category, and while it's fun, it's not the same as an autococker that I've owned for 12 years. And my cocker is usually pretty reliable (though it has been giving me grief lately).

Now, on the topic of building guns. I've reached a point where I build guns just to build them, with the intent to sell once completed. Each build's parti pris will vary. I'll usually have a specific objective in mind (over the top e-bolt 98, or pneumatic assist trilogy that requires as little modification as possible). I almost always prioritize uniformity of parts branding, for no other reason than I like stuff to match. Most of the parts decisions will come from what best matches the initial parti and/or what's actually available (rufus dawg centerfeeds being the only production centerfeed for 98s, for example). As for tuning, I always strive for the lowest possible operating pressure. Many times that will be baked into the parti, other times it's independent from.

That's a bit of a ramble, but that's what matters to me.

[DavidBoren]

I am a sucker for brand name themed builds.

PS. It was the Axe that I was thinking of.

[Siress]

After decades of observation, hypothesizing, rigorous testing, analysis, theorizing, and collaboration with engineers and blades of grass alike, I've come to a singular conclusion: What matters most is that you get out to the paintball field.

[DavidBoren]

I feel like this was directed AT me...

[Fubarius]

More just general conversation... see what makes other people tick.

Lately, I have become kind of overwhelmed with the bull$#!+ I have laying around. My normal methods are not sparking anything interesting or creative to do with all these parts... so I am seeing what other people find important, how others prioritize their work, and maybe I can approach this pile of BS from another angle.

It's not any one particular build I need help with, it's a whole new gameplan for cleaning up my mess. Lol.

For me I tend to get really excited about a build when I stumble upon some unexplored territory.

So my last one (which was way too long ago, need to fix that) I was putting together a mag fed A5. Picked up one that came with a bunch of nifty parts, and I had a bunch laying around from some previous builds so I had to do something fun with this one. High rate of fire? Been there, done that. I find I like A5's better at a moderate rate of fire, and high rate of fire with a mag feed would be counter productive. Low pressure? Also been there, tends to get a bit too finicky.

But I had a lot of high flow parts. I had also recently been in a few discussions about lightened hammers for Tippmanns, and how I don't care for them. Lighter hammers need more speed of travel to get the same inertia (and thus valve dwell), so that mean a heavy main spring. And heavy main springs cause all kinds of problems; chopping, excess sear friction, increased wear, more recoil, etc.

Well then, the goal was obvious. How light of mainspring could I pull off? With a custom valve I made for an old LP build, a ridiculously light valve spring, a metal powertube with no velocity choke, and a little volumizer I rigged up. All that let me run the lightest main spring from a kit, with a rear velocity adjuster I found backed all the way up to the lightest setting, and I still had to drop the pressure to 500psi or so to get safe velocity. I may even up the pressure and start clipping coils off the spring.

The results were quite satisfying. I had a goal, goal was achieved, and results were measurable.