Dye M3+ Trigger Frame Leak

[Cdn_Cuda]

Local kid I’ve sold some year to went a little upgrade crazy and bought a brand new Dye M3+ from ANS paintball. 5 shots over the chrono and it springs a leak. I’ve offered to take a quick look at it to see if it’s something I can fix before the hassle of sending it back. He’s using a standard Ninja 50/4500 tank.

Any advice or things I need to watch out for? Last Dye I worked on was a DMC….

[Trbo323]

Sail o ring on the bolt is the most likely cause. It's a high wear item but easy to swap out

Also he could be pushing too much or too little pressure through the noid. It vents out the frame in either case

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[Cdn_Cuda]

I’ll switch his tanks for an SLP one and see if that helps

[Trbo323]

I’ll switch his tanks for an SLP one and see if that helps

It won't. Dye markers can run on hp tanks without issue. Problem has to be further down stream

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[punkncat]

Something I highly recommend is sourcing genuine Dye rings to rebuild this, and preferably not colored ones. The after market ring quality has been really poor as of late and even worse when the colored ones.

As an aside. Where Dye suggests that the marker can handle HPA up to 850 in, I still cannot recommend utilizing something more than ~450 both based on the design of the marker as well as of the ASA. Makes them a bitch to close.
If this marker wasn't set up right and/or regs turned off when initially aired up on a high output tank, the solenoid or it's gasket could be blown. I would replace all the bolt rings, check the high and low pressure reg seats, flip them if they haven't been already, set to zero and attempt to balance this on an LP output tank first. If that leak comes back you may well need a 'noid.

[Cdn_Cuda]

For a brand new gun this sure is a pain in the butt. I think the kid was going to talk to ANS about a warranty but it’s grey
market as we’re in Canada. Wish I could have convinced him to get something cheaper. 2k cdn is lot of money to drop and then not work.

The gun was apparently tested before he got it for 100 shots. He said the first shot was in the 406 FPS range which seems like it’s got too high of pressure.

[Trbo323]

For a brand new gun this sure is a pain in the butt. I think the kid was going to talk to ANS about a warranty but it’s grey
market as we’re in Canada. Wish I could have convinced him to get something cheaper. 2k cdn is lot of money to drop and then not work.

The gun was apparently tested before he got it for 100 shots. He said the first shot was in the 406 FPS range which seems like it’s got too high of pressure.

Check the LPR

Like I said, too high of pressure will vent through the noid. It can also cause higher velocity.

I highly HIGHLY doubt any parts(beyond maybe o rings) are broken. Dyes noids are fairly robust but people like to replace them when a problem is stumping them

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[imped4now]

Something I highly recommend is sourcing genuine Dye rings to rebuild this, and preferably not colored ones. The after market ring quality has been really poor as of late and even worse when the colored ones.

As an aside. Where Dye suggests that the marker can handle HPA up to 850 in, I still cannot recommend utilizing something more than ~450 both based on the design of the marker as well as of the ASA. Makes them a bitch to close.
If this marker wasn't set up right and/or regs turned off when initially aired up on a high output tank, the solenoid or it's gasket could be blown. I would replace all the bolt rings, check the high and low pressure reg seats, flip them if they haven't been already, set to zero and attempt to balance this on an LP output tank first. If that leak comes back you may well need a 'noid.

Just an FYI -

Dye audited their seal supplier prior to the DSR/M3 releases and made some changes - the dimensional consistency, as well as the durometer consistency, were all improved. And while yes the Dye seals are colored, they're not the junk available from other sources. While I'm normally against colored seals, don't worry about it with these.

As another FYI - astute observers will note that in some sizes, Dye's dimensional specs are either outside or at the extreme end of the standard/AS568 seal specs - for example, if you compare a Dye 017 to a 017 purchased from theoringstore.com (where I source all of my seals), you'll find that the OD and CS, as well as the fitment with the bolt itself, differ. This is rather annoying, but not a big deal - either stick to Dye seals or if you really want to ditch the colored seals, you'll need to do some fitting/measuring. I personally run cast urethane in all of the dynamic locations in my M3 and it functions wonderfully, and after a lot of testing that's what I'd recommend. Just stick to Dye seals in the static locations.

[imped4now]

For a brand new gun this sure is a pain in the butt. I think the kid was going to talk to ANS about a warranty but it’s grey
market as we’re in Canada. Wish I could have convinced him to get something cheaper. 2k cdn is lot of money to drop and then not work.

The gun was apparently tested before he got it for 100 shots. He said the first shot was in the 406 FPS range which seems like it’s got too high of pressure.

This is a pretty simple marker to diagnose.

1) Have you gauged the tank regulator output? While the M3 is fully capable of handling 800ish psi, it's possible that tank regulator is outputting considerably more. Gauge it, no more guessing.

2) The leak is either coming from the frame to body transfer seal (the green 013), the solenoid manifold or the sail oring. All are easy to check.

3) If it's shooting that hot, utilize the onboard pressure transducer - set the HPR to about 110 psi and start there. If it's truly shooting that hot, the HPR pressure is likely much higher, which is also likely the cause of the leak (solenoid manifold).

[imped4now]

Check the LPR

Like I said, too high of pressure will vent through the noid. It can also cause higher velocity.

I highly HIGHLY doubt any parts(beyond maybe o rings) are broken. Dyes noids are fairly robust but people like to replace them when a problem is stumping them

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The M3 doesn't have an LPR...

[punkncat]

The M3 doesn't have an LPR...

IMO this is part of the fault in this design, but see where the super low main reg pressure allows for it to be eliminated.

A guy at the field purchased one of these new, backlash edition or something, anyway....it's been back and forth to Billy Wing 5 or 6 times now as it simply will not complete a day of play. There was some kind of solenoid mod that needed to be done and a shopping list of other things that have been tried and it simply does not work. For some astoundingly unknown reason, he bought another one which was a special order custom "print" (I would say anno, but don't think that is what it is) which is all puzzle pieces and has various text around it that he asked for. It doesn't work right either.
I wouldn't give a plug nickel for a new Dye Matrix. .02

[Cdn_Cuda]

That’s my feeling on it too. Guy was going to buy a second one for his girlfriend. He used Redit and seemed to have got the Dye M3+ in his head there. He would be way better off buying a mid- level gun and get a nice hopper, tank and mask for a lower price rather than buying this paperweight. He was shooting a Spyder before, so really anything would have been an upgrade.

[imped4now]

IMO this is part of the fault in this design, but see where the super low main reg pressure allows for it to be eliminated.

A guy at the field purchased one of these new, backlash edition or something, anyway....it's been back and forth to Billy Wing 5 or 6 times now as it simply will not complete a day of play. There was some kind of solenoid mod that needed to be done and a shopping list of other things that have been tried and it simply does not work. For some astoundingly unknown reason, he bought another one which was a special order custom "print" (I would say anno, but don't think that is what it is) which is all puzzle pieces and has various text around it that he asked for. It doesn't work right either.
I wouldn't give a plug nickel for a new Dye Matrix. .02

Completely disagree.

The lack of an LPR is a strength, not a weakness. In order to understand *why*, you'll need to dig a bit deeper into how the FL-21 functions. I recommend this video, as I helped him with the technical content: https://youtu.be/KFnxa4SqBMk

As you know, an LPR is just a a secondary regulator to feed the solenoid, which feeds the bolt sail. It's just one method of cycling control and, in many cases, is completely unnecessary. I'm not sure how you can relate the lack of an LPR to the issues being mentioned, but there's no correlation. The gentleman who designed the FL-21 (and DSR ARC) is one of the more intelligent engineers in the industry, and it wasn't Billy FYI.

As for the problem-child M3's, at that point there just has to be some out-of-spec components. There's no explanation for a correctly-spec'd marker to have to go back and forth 5-6x - that's absurd. I'd sure love to take a look at them, because these are quite reliable from a design perspective. I'd have zero qualms about handing mine to a newb for a weekend scenario with nothing other than basic functional instructions, all with a dry bolt assembly. They're not finicky, unreliable markers but it sounds like your buddy has managed to get lightning to strike twice.

Lastly, please note - I'm historically not a Dye fan and have really been indifferent toward them up until the DSR and M3, both of which I really like from a design perspective and have continued to enjoy.

[punkncat]

The issue with this marker has continually been loss of velocity. If it actually HAD an LPR I would say it was bad. I agree about the absurd aspect. It's insane considering what he paid and still cannot use it, cannot return it. It's just junk.
IMO the last Matrix I would desire to own is around the DM10 era. I STILL wish they hadn't gone to the eye pipe system. Total PITA.

I have found that even the simple level like the RAIL, which is a one reg system, is also unreliable junk.

[imped4now]

How the hell do I respond to a comment to my post?

Anyway, punkncat, if you get a chance to check out the problem children again, monitor the pressure transducer during a string, preferably of which it's losing velocity. It's either a regulator issue, bolt assembly issue or dry solenoid spool. As an FYI, max out the dwell to 20ms - there's no reason not to and it will only aid in cycling reliability.

If it's not the above items, try another tank regulator to see if it's causing all of the headaches.

[imped4now]

If he ends up wanting someone else to take a look at it, let me know. If it's not coming back working then I'm questioning if Billy himself has had his hands on it - he's no engineer, but from the videos I've seen, he's a fairly intelligent man when it comes to technical diagnosis.

[punkncat]

At least two of the repairs have been live casted to the stream that Billy and other "prominent" folks frequent. So far as I am aware the only original part of the marker remaining is the main body component(s).

[imped4now]

Interesting. So that begs the question - what's truly going on and what's causing the issue(s)? Again - offer stands if he wants a good, objective analysis of it.

[Trbo323]

Yup, don't diagnose whine tired got it, got my dyes mixed up

The lack of an LPR is a strength, not a weakness. .

I'll disagree with this though

Lpr-less balanced spools have been tried. The shocker being the most notable one, even at the time it was considered inferior to similar markers (by people who actually knew what they were talking about) but sp had a monster of a marketing campaign (helped that they didn't have to pay themselves for the e marker patent either)

They are always more prone to small issues that result in the marker not working and are harder to diagnose because you can't isolate air going through the noid

In this case if his pressure is too high but it's shooting, it could easily be venting through the noid but without the LPR its a much more complicated fix than with

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[imped4now]

Diagnosing a spool valve marker is a series of logical events, regardless of how the solenoid is being fed. Note that I've already remotely made some suggestions as to what the root causes are without even seeing the marker in person, and I bet those suggestions are on the money.

Your point stands, but as someone who works on *everything* for *anyone*, I can't say that I care one bit about the presence of an LPR as it relates to failure mode identification. As long as you understand how things work and how parts interact, arriving at the root cause takes the same process.

The LPR was eliminated for a couple reasons - one, human error reduction. Not every player is an old school MCB member with a Masters degree in ME. The average player doesn't know squat about regulators, how to properly adjust them, etc. - taking one more factor out of the equation is a smart business decision. Two, cycling reliability - you're increasing the force (F = SA(P)) acting on the sail area by almost double, allowing the marker to function in less than ideal weather and lube conditions. Think about this, and we'll use the M2 as the comparison - it takes a certain amount of force to reliably cycle the marker, in that case around 55-60 psi. If you drop under that pressure threshold, consistency will suffer and the risk of functional issues goes up in less than ideal conditions. So, even if you've got a small "tuning window", what good is it truly in the name of tuning? It's still a largely "set and forget" supply method. There's a reason PE went to offering SFR's, because flow restriction can actually be reliably used to tune the feel/shot character of a marker, while pressure itself is highly limited. And three, with that additional force offered by the higher cycling pressure, the bolt itself could be used to stage the forward cycle, while the solenoid manifold was designed to throttle exhaust flow (think PE SFR).

There's some very trick stuff going on in the M3 that the vast majority don't know about or understand. The video above explains it well and perhaps will allow you to better appreciate the engineering that went into the design.