Running both CO² & HPA

[alpha_q_up]

Hey guys I was in the middle of scrounging together a "leftovers" build I was gonna run off CO², and I got to thinking about if it's possible to try and run both CO² and HPA on the build. Right now I have a 12 gram quick changer off the VASA going directly to the marker.

My thought was to run a t splitter off the marker and a check valve on each branch. That way one source would/could be the CO² and the other would be HPA. Now my biggest question/concern is about both of these is how dangerous would mixing both be, like let's say I shoot most of my HPA and decide I want to swap to CO² so I pop a fresh 12ie in, will the residual HPA in the marker mixed with the CO² cause any issue?

Secondly if all this is possible and it's safe, what splitter and or check valves have any of you guys used?

[OpusX]

Time out, you dont want a setup that works on CO2 or HPA, you want to roll a CO2/HPA cocktail?! Interesting...

If I recall there is an old tale of the All Americans running such a mix directly in thier tanks back in the day, but that could easily just be a legend.

[glaman5266]

I read it that way too at first, but I don't think that's what he's asking. He wants to know if he can swap between the gasses on the fly with a valve/set of check valves. But there may be remaining HPA in the line after the 12g check valve. He wants to know if that's going to be bad to mix.

In which case, I have no idea.

[Meleager7]

I thought when co2 and hpa combined, it would cause a tear in space and time!??

[Alexndl]

Don't cross the streams... of CO2 and HPA... it would be bad

[SignOfZeta]

This makes little sense to me. Just get a bigger HPA tank or bring more 12gs. Your thinking is Beyond the Thunderdome. Concentrate on basic reliability before theoretical capabilities.

Beyond that: no field should allow this. Changing air sources should require re-chronoing in almost every case I can think of.

[MrBarraclough]

That's the real problem here: maintaining consistent velocity with two very different air sources.

[OpusX]

This makes little sense to me... Concentrate on basic reliability before theoretical capabilities.

It makes perfect sense, as this is MCB, the center of all paintball entropy in the known universe.

[Tarsun2]

i was just thinking the same thing on my drive to work. i thought to myself; maybe i can put diesel in my car on one trip and gasoline for the other....

dont mix them. nothing bad will happen but nothing good will either. the set ups and gas characteristics for each are different. Its like an all season tire: not great in the snow and not great in the dry. keep them separate. youd be trying to fix a self induced uphill battle. this is why we all have spare markers.

[Euphie]

I have seen multitank remote setups, so I doubt there would be an issue, just turn one off, and turn the other on. In those remote setups they are usually just using multiple 20oz tanks, but it isn't like co2 will make HPA catch fire or anything. Air is just air. I wouldn't try to run them both at the very same time, though as undoubtedly these won't have the same pressure, so when the pressure equalizes it will rush towards the space of lower pressure, and co2 can be very dirty I wouldn't want it flowing towards my tank regulator.

Though perhaps the bigger flaw is you need a regulator in this setup to make it safe. What I mean is my shocker shoots 280fps at about 175 PSI. So if I screw in a new co2 tank, it is no big deal so long as my gauge is still reading 175 PSI and my paint/bore match is still the same I am still going to shoot ~280fps. If I were to put a co2 tank into a Tippmann for example that tank could range between 600-1200 PSI depending and until I shoot it at a crono I am not going to know. Most HPA tanks are preset to 850 PSI, so while the velocity could be lower from co2 it could also be much higher. In that case the Tippmann's velocity could vary widely as the pressure isn't being set to a specific amount. You really need a regulator set to lower than the output pressure of either tank's output and a gauge to be sure you aren't getting a pressure spike from liquid co2 expanding inside the reg or finding it's way around cold o-rings

[Grendel]

Nothing bad will happen using either or or even if you mix them. There was a time back in the early days of HPA (at the time called nitro system) that players would add a little CO2 to their N2 system thinking that would give them more volume for the same pressure (the thought was some would be liquid CO2 and some Gaseous N2) and no one died from it. Not a practical idea and not long lived but paintballers will do a lot of stupid things to try and stay on the field longer. So that answers one part of your question, no harm to you or your marker (given it can run on CO2).

Yes you could do this but you are making a Rube Goldberg setup for a "I might have an issue at some future date" scenario. Run out of air, walk off the field. Want to stay longer and shoot more paint then up your air source (P=F/A) but hell sometimes it is fun to just see if you can do something.

So you could set it up but to be "practical" you would need rated check valves for both sources to ensure that their respective volumes do not prematurely drop pressure when you switch between them. If I was to do this I would have both feed into a single regulator so you can set up your marker based on one pressure regardless of the air source.

[Olsson]

I thought when co2 and hpa combined, it would cause a tear in space and time!??

Only if you use them on an Autococker set up with an autotrigger.

[XEMON]

I had that on my old phantom ... I side tapped a rear asa valve and added a VASA, so i had an ASA on the back that i used for HPA and a VASA with a bucket changer.
When using 12g, i had an asa adapter with a plug in it, and when using HPA, i left a spent 12g in the bucket. It worked great, never had an issue.
I can dig up some pictures if you want.

[alpha_q_up]

Have you posted a picture or thread about it of it before? I had thought that I seen a build running both before, just wasn't positive where it was posted, who posted it, and what build it was.

[XEMON]

I have ... long time ago ...

[Chuck E Ducky]

You could with the right marker. It would need to be able to run both air sources consistent enough that you could effectively chrono it. Most markers have massive fluctuations from HPA to Co2.

Honestly it’s pointless lots of great size air sources today. It would cost you more time energy and cost then it would just going with a larger HPA tank. Hell they even make 13ci tanks in 4.5k now. It’s just not practical in any sense.

Best platform I can think of for a dual air source would be the phantom. I drop about 15-20fps going from 12g to HPA without adjustments to the TPC. But my tank outputs are matched as close as I can get them to 12g pressure (approx 825psi) adding all the plumbing required to switch on the fly. Would go against everything the marker is about (lite and simplistic) but if you want to watch the world burn have at it. Make it your own. But you will create more problems then you will solve and I can’t think of a single benefit having both on deck when you could just pop one off and run the other and or just go bigger on your air source.

It’s probably possible with a ton of tuning and adjustment to HPA input pressure to get it so the sources chronograph similar but you will most likely take a hit in FPS when using HPA on a marker chronographed for Co2. Without adjustment of velocity. If you run it the other way around you will shoot hot. You would need to chrono on Co2 and take the FPS hit on HPA (most likely your main pressure source) unless you can Mach your HPA reg input pressure closer to the erratic 12g then I have been able to do. +/-20fps drop is still playable so it’s doable but far from
practical.

[Trbo323]

Just run a downstream regulator. You wouldn't even have Chrono concerns at that point since the input pressure would be stabilized on either gas.

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[MrBarraclough]

Except that CO2 is temperature dependent, and highly temperature sensitive. Liquid CO2 at a low temperature (due to rapid firing) could pass through the regulator at one pressure and then when given space to expand and ambient heat downstream could increase in pressure.

If the reg output pressure is lower than the vapor pressure of CO2 at the current ambient temperature, then yes, the system should work consistently so long as nothing happens to lower the temp of the CO2 to the point that its vapor pressure drops to or below the reg output pressure.

[Cunha]

Look at the input pressure to output pressure ratio on a good high pressure reg, some are better than others. Most can easily handle the difference.

If your HPA is outputting 800psi or so and you've got straight tank co2 and they're going to the same high pressure regulator you are barely going to notice a difference.

[alpha_q_up]

Thanks for all the info guys, I'm gonna keep it solely CO² or solely HPA based... curiosity and the cat thing

[Tarsun2]

unless its Schrodingers cat; then it both IS and ISNT.