Rechargeable Lithium-ion 9V batteries. Anyone try them in their markers?

[MrBarraclough]

I've noticed that my Rize CZR is both a bit finicky about battery charge (it likes fresh, fully charged batteries) and has the traditional Dye/Proto tendency towards vampiric battery drain. So if I neglect to remove the battery at the end of the day, the next time I play I usually end popping in a new 9V to either fix battery-related misbehavior or avoid it in the first place. My kitchen junk drawer is starting to accumulate used 9Vs that have enough charge to be used in something, just not enough for me to want to trust them on the field. And even when I completely discharge a battery, I feel a little guilty about the waste generated by using disposable alkalines.

So I just started looking into Lithium-ion rechargeable 9Vs. Has anyone else tried these already? How'd they work out?

To be clear, I am not asking about Ni-Cad or NiMH rechargeables, specifically only Lithium-ion. That seemed to be a point of confusion when I posed this question on Reddit. I am well aware of the annoying limitations of the former two. At one point I had tried replacing nearly all of our AA and AAAs with rechargeables, but the damned things are so awful about passive drain and reduced capacity after several charging cycles that I eventually resumed buying disposable aklalines.

Tangentally related question: Empire sells an adapter to replace the AA battery harnesses in their Halo family hoppers with a pair of 9Vs. Does this work reasonably well? I have a Halo Too and a Scion in my backup/loaner collection and thought that might be one way of using my not-dead-yet 9Vs from my marker.

[Jonnydread]

I've had good luck with the Tenergy line, but I rarely use batteries and when I do the NiMH ones are fine. They don't appear to have a Lithium-ion variant, but they do make custom battery packs so it may be worth dropping them an email.

[Cunha]

At one point I had tried replacing nearly all of our AA and AAAs with rechargeables, but the damned things are so awful about passive drain and reduced capacity after several charging cycles that I eventually resumed buying disposable aklalines.

Sorry not related to your actual request, but Sanyo (now Panasonic) Eneloops are NiMH that do not have -any- of the problems of previous NiMH and NiCad batteries. Essentially zero memory, essentially zero self discharge, insane amount of recharge cycles. They are truly amazing. For paintball I don't use em only because I'm a freak and use L91 energizer lithium AA's for the weight savings (and better capacity)

But I don't know of a good rechargeable 9v solution. I've purchased some energizer ultimate lithium (primary, non rechargeable) 9v batteries that are lighter weight and have more power than a typical 9v but it seems their actual voltage may be wrong for some things. You might try one of them in your Rize CZR and see if it works and mostly if its different output means the gun works without finickiness for a much longer time as they have less voltage drop in high drain situations.

[MrBarraclough]

Thanks, that is helpful. I was not aware that someone is out there making better NiMH batteries.

[Bulldogr6]

I have some , I've run them in PE electros and they lasted a whole day in my e cocker with E1 board so that says something.

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[MrBarraclough]

9V Li-on rechargeables? What brand? Did you get them off Amazon?

[Macdave06]

I've purchased some energizer ultimate lithium (primary, non rechargeable) 9v batteries that are lighter weight and have more power than a typical 9v but it seems their actual voltage may be wrong for some things.

The reason is that li-ion cells are 3.7-4.2 volts. A "9v" li-ion is actually 8.4v max. Where as ni-cad and ni-mh cells are 1.2v (hence the 9.6v rating).


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[William the Third]

The only post that actually answered the question. Li-ion cells have a nominal voltage of 3.6v (when fully charged they will be ~4.2v). There is no way to combine them to get close to 9v. Two are nominally 7.2v (~8.4v fully charged), three are 10.8v (12.6v fully charged).

[Jonnydread]

Today I learned that some people care about the weight of their batteries, fascinating.

[Cunha]

You ever used a Halo with 6aa batteries?

It's like a half hopper weight difference normal AA's vs lithium AA's

[Jonnydread]

Cunha not since the early 2000s, which is where I intend to keep the memory

[Tarsun2]

you might be able to use a small voltage regulator to lower the Vout to 9v if you went the lion route.

dont knock nimh and nicad batteries though.
yeah the voltage is lower but the capacity is usually higher... the 18650 lion batteries i have are 3.4v and 2500mA. The 18670 nimh batteries i have are only 1.2v BUT the capacity is 4500mA...

remember, nicad and nimh can generally use the same charger BUT lion batteries NEED to be charged a specific way. Also, if you completely drain a lion battery, you severely impact its usable life. also when you start making "packs", you have to balance charge them. it gets a little messy.

an if you get into lipo foil packs, you reallllly need to know what you're doing and be very careful.

[lhamilton1807]

Something like this could be used for 8.4v batteries. It has a voltage output reliability of +/- 0.1v. Or so it claims 😅

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Boost-Step-Up-Voltage-Regulator-3-3V-4-2V-5V-6V-9V-12V-2A-Converter-Module-/322590885144?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

There are also little step down/buck charging chips that will step down from 10 or more volts to 9v. Keep in mind the output regulation and know that this would be just another board to bleed your battery. But it’s possible to regulate an 8.4 or 9.6v battery to 9v if there’s room in your grip.

[Tarsun2]

if you have a flashlight that takes 3 AAA batteries in a carousel, you can drop an 18650 battery in it and it will shine brighter, and last longer.

[Cunha]

Curse those 3x AAA lights.

[Tarsun2]

theyre not bad with the 18650 cells. most of the time, the height is so close that it needs no modification and you can buy sleeves for cheap on ebay to take up the gap.

[Meleager7]

Have any of you guys found a good source for Rechargeable 9.6 Volts ? I have a spyder with an ESP frame, and although it does work on regular 9V batteries, I read i might get better performance out of the frame if i can find 9.6 V batteries

[William the Third]

Lots of places have "9v" NiMH rechargeable batteries, even Harbor Freight has them. The key for a Spyder is looking for 8-cell 9.6v NiMH "9v" batteries, not the 7-cell 8.4v NiMH "9v" batteries. Sadly not everywhere list the cell count/nominal voltage, and the 7-cell/8.4v seems to be the more common version. Powerex seems to be the only ones selling 8-cell 9.6v NiMH "9v" batteries. You can find them on Amazon too.

[lhamilton1807]

https://www.ansgear.com/Tenergy_Valor_9_6V_230mAh_Rechargeable_Battery_C_p/tenergybattery96valorkit.htm

https://www.ansgear.com/Tenergy_Valor_9_6V_230mAh_Rechargeable_Battery_S_p/tenergybattery96valor-single.htm

[Tarsun2]

what about "batteries +"

[Cunha]

Powerex is a decent 3rd party vendor for stuff that isn't offered by eneloop basically.

Can't count on them 100% but they do have decent cells sometimes. I second william the thirds recommend.

[lhamilton1807]

I’m interested in the same thing. Do either 8.4 or 9.6 rechargeable batteries present a problem for Dye/Proto boards? What about in a 9v Revvy? I’m with the OP - I feel guilty using disposable batteries when rechargeables can be used hundreds of times.

[William the Third]

A fresh off the charger 8.4v NiMH will have a voltage around 9.8v. A fresh out of the package Alkaline 9v will have a voltage around 9.6v. An 8.4v NiMH should be safe in something designed for Alkaline 9v. However, a fresh off the charger 9.6v NiMH will have a voltage around 11.2v, and could be risky if used in something not designed for 9.6v NiMH.

[lhamilton1807]

Perfect, thank you!

[Seajay]

This is an interesting discussion. Do the Li rechargeable "9v" (not the 9.6v) still drop off in voltage quickly? For low power devices like flashlights or mp3 players this isn't a big deal. For our discharging capacitors this is basically a brown out condition, which I've had boards short out from essentially burning chips from trying to draw too much energy out of low voltage. It also saps the battery life considerably.

[MrBarraclough]

In general, Lithium ion batteries have a discharge curve that is relatively flat for a long time and then drops precipitously. You can see this with Li-on batteries in cordless drills. As the battery dies, the drill doesn't gradually slow down and lose torque in the way that old Ni-Cad and NiMH powered ones did; it just stops. Aside from energy density, I believe this is a big reason they are so widely used with electronics. They maintain their voltage output rather well until they suddenly can't anymore.

[lhamilton1807]

But to William III’s point, that means 3.7v lion batteries are nominally rated at 3.7, 7.4, or 11.1v. How are the cells arranged to get 9v output (or thereabouts)? Is there a voltage regulator built into the brick?

[Seajay]

Ya I get it batteries designed for specific use. My 18v drill is a monster. I was wondering more so for general use batteries that are in AA/AAA/9v configurations that might substituted for use with paintball. The issues I've had are with AA Li rechargeable from Walmart in a high power use case, like driving capacitors. They just never lasted.

[Tarsun2]

you can buck/boost the voltage of a battery/power source. Since a lithium ion "pack" (more than one cell) will need to be balanced charged, voltage monitoring, and temp monitoring, manufacturers can take advantage of the PCB thats already there and adjust the output if needed. Or they can adjust the V at the device instead of using a "smart battery". this is a pretty broad statement and not every single lion battery and device is like this...
lithium ion batteries will peeter of in voltage but draining past ~2v/cell will severely hurt the battery and reduce its useful life. so manufacturers will also include a low voltage cutoff to prevent this from happening. this can either be built into the pack or the device.

some power tool pack manufacturers will also add software to prevent the pack from being rebuilt. If the board senses 0v, it will trigger the pack to be inoperable even if minty fresh batteries are installed.

you can piece together a pack that meets all of your requirements one component at a time but it will be big and cumbersome; as apposed to a pack with everything built it.

build it with a higher V
buck converter to bring it down to what you want
low voltage cutoff
balance leads
temp monitoring
and a remote balance charger

ive used the 2x 9v adapter before and it worked reasonably well. you'd want to use two 9v's with the same voltage though or the one will drain the other.