Do I need a Reg on a cocker with HPA?

[shooter311]

I have a Micrococker project I am finally wrapping up. I spoke with Docfire a while ago about springing it like the old days so I could use it without a Reg. He said that was for use with CO2 and it doesn't work with HPA.

My question is, why wouldn't it work with HPA?

* I completely understand the benefits of running lower pressures, and I wouldn't do this for any other cockers or snipers I own, but when I put a reg on the Micrococker it just doesn't look like the old microcockers I drooled over in APG.

Also, I know I could get a Flex Reg or Female Stab, but I am not looking for solutions at this point, I am just curious, why I can't.

[Jonnydread]

If the HPA output is high enough I see no reason why it wouldn't work right? I know CO2 generally outputs around 800 psi and there are HPA regs that can push 800+. I know Db1060 just sprung one of his pumps for direct input, he may be willing to screw an HPA tank on there and give it a test for ya.

[shooter311]

I have a matching ASA, so I would hate to replace that with a bottom line reg. I think what I don't like the looks of the the vert asa coming out of the front block. I bought a ST one since it was the shortest and least noticeable one I could find. It just doesn't do it for me!

[Jonnydread]

shooter311 Fair enough. I still think with enough patience and spring tuning you could get it to work.

[Db1060]

I got the Palmer valve and used the valve spring that they sent. Did a inception hammer spring From ID spring set. Ivg was back all the way out and straight c02 to the gun I was shooting 260. I hooked my 15/45 to the gun and she was leaking down the barrel. Need to put this ker lube on the valve

[Ecapnation]

Technically no......

[Grendel]

This ^ but why other then making your life harder then needed.

[Ecapnation]

Well.... If your tank pressure output is what the marker needs or can adjust the secondary reg is redundant.

That's why evo's used max flows ect

[Spider!]

The HPR takes care of the swing in pressure that comes from the pressure change across the bottle reg as the bottle drains. It is relatively small. It also handles different bottle regs.

To go without an HPR, you would want to always use the same bottle/[reg] combo and sweet spot the springs/valve around that bottle pressure. This is now more practical with small 2" HPA bottles that can be dedicated to a marker.

[zinger565]

Everything Spider! said. I'd also add that depending on what HPA reg you have on the bottle, you can drop the pressure down to 550 or even lower in some cases. While not as far of a drop as an HPR will get you, it's still a lot closer to "normal" operating pressure.

[Chuck E Ducky]

If you can do it with HPA you going to want to get a good bottle reg if you want any kind of consistency. Your going to want to get the pressure down around what an HPR puts out. Otherwise you will over pressure the LPR. Most of the direct bottle setups were pumps because unregulated is to much pressure for the pneumatics.

Theres airsoft adapters now that will drop bottle pressure way down to 200psi but I think that’s to low for paintball. It can be done not sure how well it will work and recharge.

*A standard ninja reg will do 450psi with the shims removed. That’s pretty close to operating pressure. What is it running now around 350ish?

[shooter311]

I was wondering about the limits of the LPR, but I remember back in the day several people running autocockers with straight co2 which is around 800psi, so I figured the LPR could handle the pressure.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Honestly not sure. But you can definitely get it lower then 800psi easy. Ninja SLP will do 300psi I would swap the burst disks just to be safe if your going to put it on a 3k bottle. Hell you could shim it out to whatever your HPR is sweet spotted at now. Probably use the same springs. At the same time that 13ci FS 4.5k tank wouldn’t hang all that low off a Vert setup. Maybe even a Palmers angled ASA back would handle pretty well I bet. Ninjas good about sending out shims to they make a bunch of different thicknesses so you can really dial it in if you want.

[Magmoormaster]

It'll be fine. I've done it, and before the 2000s just about everyone did it.

[Walker]

I switch my Blazer back and forth between Co2 and HPA... It doesn't care... I don't have to re-spring. Velocity adjustments? Sure, but not springs...

It doesn't matter whether I'm using an HPR or not, it just works...


Walker

[DocsMachine]

It's always interesting to see the "old tech" roll back around, and see how much knowledge has been all but forgotten.

On the LPRs, most should be able to take full, unregulated CO2 pressures, not only without damage but also still functioning normally. Modern LPRs like Inceptions' are designed for lower input pressures, but should still work fine. Rocks, Jackhammers and FGPs, among others, work just fine at full CO2 pressures.

On the operating pressures, what you want is the older style smaller valve chambers, and older style Sheridan-poppet valves. The modern "high flow" valves have larger poppets, and that means more force from the chamber pressure, which acts as a stronger spring. The smaller bore valves, I believe, tend to "meter out" the air burst better at higher pressures as well.

On regulating the pressure, virtually all screw-in tanks are a single-stage regulator, and generally speaking the output pressure will rise as the tank pressure falls. I've seen a pretty dramatic swing on some tanks, less so on others. That's the whole point of the inline reg, of course- to smooth out that swing, so the marker itself sees a more consistent pressure.

However, when properly sweet-spotted, the valve itself can have some measure of regulation- increased pressure in the valve chamber acts as a heavier valve spring, so thgere's a measure of balancing there.

Years ago, I set up a Paintball Mania FW71 tank (the old "fire extinguisher" shaped tanks) on a 'Cocker, with no inline reg. It's got an early RAT valve (old Bob Long, I think?) and is 'balanced' to the point where, if the input pressure goes up, the velocity drops, and if the input pressure goes down, the velocity drops. (Not dramatically in either case, but again, there s a measure of self-regulation there.)

And, of course, it's easy to test. Once you have it fully set up, just chrony the gun with a full tank and with a nearly-empty one. (For a high-pressure gun, meaning with the tank pressure at just above output pressure and well into the "below output pressure" range.)

Long story short? Get'cha an old valve, a Rock and a small-bore bolt and go to town.

Doc.

[shooter311]

Very good info! Thank you.

Being a Micrococker I have an old school WGP valve in it now, although I just ordered a CCM valve for it, would that be too high flow?

Also, you mention a small bore bolt, being a Micrococker I am super limited on options, would that really make a huge difference?

[maggot]

I'll echo what everyone else here has already said, Docfire's incorrect here. Not only is it perfectly doable, you can come up with an even more usable setup now than you could in the past with all the different tank reg options.

[DocsMachine]

[/qBeing a Micrococker I have an old school WGP valve in it now, although I just ordered a CCM valve for it, would that be too high flow?

-If it's the valve I'm thinking of, it should be fine. The only one I can think of that really shouldn't be fed particularly high pressures, is the Tornado.

Also, you mention a small bore bolt, being a Micrococker I am super limited on options, would that really make a huge difference?

-In my experience, yes. I haven't done as much testing at high pressures, but with a relatively low pressure gun, I've found just the bolt bore cutting 30+ FPS off the velocity. Bigger is not always better- the key being that you do not want to let the gas burst to expand any more than necessary before it reaches the ball. A big, open bolt doesn't "flow" better- it just lets the burst of gas expand more- which wastes energy- before it can start pushing on the ball.

Doc.

[latches109]

yes you can operate without a inline regulator. Not hard to add and remove shims in tank reg. Most modern tank regs are very consistent. I do the same as Walker on a few setups too.

i even use a max-flo - where does this land, since it also is my tank reg

[grendal50]

I have a pump that's unregulated and very consistent, even switching between Hpa and Co2 although the velocity jumps about 25fps switching to hpa.