School me on Freak Tips for 5" inserts.

[Rolling Thunder 67]

Recently recieved a Spyder freak back from Doc and a couple of Phase Flashpoint tips. attempted to thread "to my knowledge" a AA spiral ported tip. No go, picked up the leading thread then started to bind.Doc's tips were backwards compatible to the other freak back i have. Is there a way to tell which tips will fit what Doc refers to Classic inserts and tips, All my tips have the tapered shoulder leading towards the barrel, i believe that they also were straight shoulders at one point. I know this is a little late in the game as GOG has moved on to the FREAK XL and I vaguely remember some info on the forum at one time,however not finding it and Google is not being much help. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Thanks RT 67

[BrickHaus]

Ive had similar issues with a docs shorty foregrip. Let me start by saying. I never contacted Doc about my issues.


I bought a Docs shorty grip years back to fit in my Ans gear Ion frame vasa to be a front grip. It wouldn't thread into it. Same issue, it binded on the lead.

It would however thread into tippmann Asas, and other bottom line asas I had, but not either of the vertical asas I wanted it for.

I tossed it aside and chalked it up to manufacturing tolerance stack up.

Years later I wanted to fit my Docs grip onto an icd cat I was getting anodized. the grip bound up on the cat in a similar fashion.

After many attempts and getting it jammed together. I noticed a witness mark on the lead in root of the threads. After close inspection, I had an odd hump at the lead in, almost like the tool plowed a bit before it cut.

I took a file to mine to make it work on my cat ASA, then shipped it off for ano. Unfortunately filing an ID thread is much tougher than an OD.


I'd say PM doc as your back should work with those tips. Especially his phase tips.

I think he errors on the high side of tolerance to give us maximum thread engagement, and the phase tips are likely a hair large, while the back is tight.

Here is my grip before and after I mangled. It up with a file to make it usable. im my case, it got reanodized anyways so it was no big deal.

[DocsMachine]

There's only two threads for Freaks: The original Freak threads (most have taken to calling them 'classic') and the newer XL threads.

Assuming you're sure you don't somehow have a DYE UL tip or some other similar 2-part kit tip, the issue is what's known as "stacked tolerances". Some parts- both factory and aftermarket- come out of the machine slightly large or slightly small. You get a slightly small back and a slightly large tip, and they might bind.

In my case, I made my backs fit basically every tip I have in my collection- almost two dozen. And believe me, over the years of manufacture by Smart Parts, there's a surprisingly wide range of sizes...

But, unfortunately, I've heard from a couple customers that, like you, found a tip that doesn't fit. My best guess on these is they're later GOG manufacture tips, and tend to run a little on the slightly-large size. (Keeping in mind we're talking about a few thousandths of an inch, here or there.)

My recommendations for this kind of thing: First, put a drop of oil on the threads of the tip, and gently try to screw it in. It's possible there's a slight burr on one part or the other, and once that's gone, they should screw together smoothly. (A touch of oil on barrel threads is not a bad idea in general- also keep them clean, of course.) Don't force it, or it can jam and damage the threads.

If that doesn't work, hit me up by email and send it back in, with the tip in question. I can try the tip on other backs and see if I can find one that fits better.

And if that doesn't work, and you can't find a tip that does fit, I'll be happy to take it back and give you a refund.

Let me know what happens.

Doc.

[DocsMachine]

I tossed it aside and chalked it up to manufacturing tolerance stack up.

-This is exactly it. And in our little industry, so much of what we use today came out of garage shops, there's often no "standards"- no production drawings, no published tolerances. Ask Simon of Inception what he had to do to come up with a workable specification for 'Cocker threads, for example.

I've seen it too- back when I developed my 'Mag 'Cocker-barrel adapters, I wound up measuring all the 'Cocker bodies I could find (plus most of the customer guns that came through the shop at the time) and every barrel I could get my hands on- several dozen at least.

And there was a surprising range of dimensions- I still to this day have barrels that won't fit some bodies, but thankfully, I hit it about right on the adapters, and I can count on one hand the fit issues I've had on those over the years.

These backs are the same thing- Smart Parts, and a number of aftermarket companies, have been making the original Freak parts for twenty years or more. Different batches, different machines, different manufacturers, different anodizing, etc.

And yes, as Bricks notes, because the Freak threads are so fine, I tend to try to make a fairly close fit- unlike the factory SP stuff that's kind of sloppy and lets the O-rings take up the slack.

The ASA's, as Brick found, are another one of those things there was no real published tolerances for, for the longest time. Or if there were, not everybody followed the exact specs. I did the same thing there- last batch of grips I made, I test-fitted them to damn near any ASA I could find in the shop, from old square-body 'Cocker to near-new Ego. And one of the first ones sold out of that batch, a buyer complained it wouldn't fit his original Automag vertical ASA. This latest batch I have now was adjusted slightly to fit, but as we can see, even those apparently don't always fit.

It's worth noting, though, that in both cases here, gents, if a problem like this crops up please tell me about it! That way I can adjust and improve the next batch- I can't fix it if I don't know it's broke.

Doc.

[BrickHaus]

Sorry Doc. I didn't want to be a bother about it. As it worked on some ASAs after all, so I figure it did pass the go/no go test.

[Rolling Thunder 67]

Thank you both Doc and BrickHaus. Doc i PM'd early today asking a question about The freakback i recently purchased from you and was waiting a response. Like BrickHaus I came to the conclusion that this tip wasn't going to work with said back and accepted it at that.
Thank you both for your explainations concerning "classic" tips and stacked tolerance. The tip in question is a mass produced 14" SmartParts AA(cross hair jewels). I did try a little oil and still no go, not Doc's Phase Flaspoint tip, all of the components Doc produced in house worked flawlessly with each other.

Thank you Gents.

[DocsMachine]

I didn't want to be a bother about it.

-What some people consider a "bother", others consider "customer feedback".

Part of the reason I have a big collection of markers, is so I have a "test bed" to fit any part I might make, to. But just because it might fit this body, doesn't always mean it fits that body. And in the cases here- barrels, tops and ASAs- these things have been made by many different manufacturers, over many, many years, and in dozens or even hundreds of batches.

I do my best to make the parts fit, but I hate having to make things so sloppy to be sure they fit any potential 'worst case scenario'. My Flattop front-block bolts, for example, won't fit ANS front blocks- because ANS machined those to take tank O-rings under the bolt, rather than the thicker WGP ones. I could make those bolts fit the ANS blocks (of which there really aren't all that many) but then they'd be loose and sloppy on all the other blocks.

Bottom line- if something of mine doesn't fit or work, I want to know.

The tip in question is a mass produced 14" SmartParts AA(cross hair jewels).

-Interesting. That's the majority of what I have, as my 'test mule' parts... I have at least three generations of factory SP tips in my collection (not counting aftermarket, the later XL, and others) and there's some definite differences- though again, only a few thou here and there.

Either of you, just let me know if I can do anything, and I'll be happy to help out.

Doc.