Automag delay in bolt reset

[dzslozt]

What is it?
An ULE Automag
X-Valve with level 10
Lukes rail, fore grip, Sidekick, Cool Hand Luke frame, T-Rex and P90 LPR

Story: Had some trouble with velocity variation at Supergame. Narrowed it down to a spring issue. Replaced all the regulator springs (small and large), valve pin and respective seals. Basically, I rebuilt the X-Valve regulator. The back of the regulator where the small and large springs are is packed with Dow. On testing I am getting some strange bolt behavior. On trigger pull, it cycles and the bolt goes partially back toward the seated position. It hangs there for a few seconds, and during you can hear air leaking down the barrel. It then resets to the seated position by cycling again, and all leaking stops. I tried adjusting the X-Valve regulator by increasing the pressure. It only reduced the amount of time it took hanging out in partially back position. Reducing pressure at the X-Valve increased the time. Now my tank is empty and I need to refill before continuing to test.

Here's some additional information: Supergame Oregon was a soggy, sloppy and wet mess. I have cleaned everything except the on/off assembly. I did pull it out to visually inspect, and everything looked well lubricated with no signs of water intrusion. At Supergame I made sure everything was well lubed, and inspected all the bits and pieces to try and improve the velocity issues. I put lots of paint through it as well. I was able to play somewhat so long as I dialed the FPS down to avoid the spikes over 300. Not much range that way, but was able to field test it. There, I think that's the entire story.

Input pressure from the tank is 850 psi.
Tank regulator is a Ninja Flex.
Tank is connected directly to the Sidekick.

I have to wait until tomorrow to refill on air. Until then, I thought I'd post up here to see if y'all had any insights.

[nak81783]

Nice Mag!

1. What bolt spring are you using? If gold, does it extend beyond the bolt tip about 1/8”?

2. Are you using the loosest Level 10 carrier that doesn’t leak?

3. Do you have a mech frame and unaltered sear to isolate if it’s a pneumatics issue?

[BrickHaus]

Sounds like bolt stick. One of the things I hated about lvl 10s. Like stated above it may be remedied if you bump a carrier, or try another bolt o ring. In my expierence, mags, lvl 10s specifically, are a tight wire walk between bolt stick and or leaking.

But also, if that's a freshly built mag. The o ring may need a bit more break in. You could dump a bunch of oil on it, and use a squeegee down the barrel to give your fomie something to hit. Then cycle it through a tank to see if that helps wear it in.

[Shane-O]

Also, clean all that Dow crap out of the regulator. the reg doesnt use grease, it prefers air tool oil, and just a light little bit. This may have nothing to do with your issue though. The velocity doesnt really affect bolt return. You may have to retune the LVL10 and use a different bolt spring, which should not have any grease on it. Just a tiny bit of oil wiped on.

[Myrkul]

100% This. Mags like oil.

[superman]

What on/off assembly are you using? rt or ult? Is your spring more than 1/8" past the tip of the bolt.

Make sure the level 10 carrier is sized correctly. Often times people use one that is too tight and causes sticking issues.
next i believe luke recommend a .735 on/off pin in an rt on/off for his trex.
If you are using a ult replace it with an rt on/off.

[nak81783]

Also, clean all that Dow crap out of the regulator. the reg doesnt use grease, it prefers air tool oil, and just a light little bit. This may have nothing to do with your issue though. The velocity doesnt really affect bolt return. You may have to retune the LVL10 and use a different bolt spring, which should not have any grease on it. Just a tiny bit of oil wiped on.

The reg springs are isolated from air flow. I always used
a grease on these, lightly applied though, not packed. Only reason I’m mentioning this is that as oil is periodically put into the ASA, it won’t lube the reg springs. So unless you open it up to oil them frequently, grease is a better option in my opinion.

[Shane-O]

Grease can create some stickiness, so air tool oil is best in my opinion, you are not lubricating the spring pack, only keeping it from rusting. But in general Dow33/55 is the DEVILS creation in paintball....lol.SO many people slather that stuff on everything, a little is good so alot is better right?

[dzslozt]

I'm at work, so I can't do any testing right now. Here's a couple of updates after last night's post. First, thank you everyone for helping out! A correction on the X-valve regulator. Shane-O I did not "pack" it with Dow. I should not have said that. I simply coated the springs and the interior with it, and put it together to keep things from rusting. That is the ONLY place I use Dow. That stuff is goopy and can cause things to stick if used elsewhere. On another note, I was messing with the carriers, and as suggested, it was too tight. I didn't want to look at the carrier because it was working fine before I rebuilt the reg, so thanks for pointing me at it. I noticed some frustrating irregularities on the carrier sizing. Like, same sizes fitting very differently, even when using the same seal. So I went through them all to get an idea of what I was looking at. I've attached the image as y'all might find it interesting. superman, using your suggestion, I measured the on/off pin. It is 0.738 in long. I am using the RT on/off. BrickHaus Your break in suggestion is something I am going to try. I wonder if it got dried out or the seal swelled a little bit from the humidity at Supergame, hence why it started doing this. Most everything is new "ish" here. Less than a year old. I also looked at the bolt spring. It is the gold one, and sitting at 1/8" past the bolt, so it's all good there.

More testing after work, and gassing up the tanks!

[superman]

Are you measuring the length or the ID of the carriers? They are intended to squeeze the oring. They operate differently than the level 7 spacers.

[superman]

Also note that 000,00 look very similar to .5 and 1 to the untrained eye.
.

[dzslozt]

I am measuring the ID of the seal side of the carrier. superman I did not have this image. This is MUCH better than what I was working with. This clears things up a lot!

[nak81783]

I keep these handy as well.

[PlawB]

The reg springs are isolated from air flow. I always used
a grease on these, lightly applied though, not packed. Only reason I’m mentioning this is that as oil is periodically put into the ASA, it won’t lube the reg springs. So unless you open it up to oil them frequently, grease is a better option in my opinion.

Yeah I've cleaned out tons of old valves and found grease in the reg spring pack all the time.

[dzslozt]

Thank you all for the images. I did some more testing on it last night. Got it all the way down to a 000 carrier, and it still leaks down the barrel. I have replaced all the seals in the power tube as well. Scratching my head on this one. I have a classic valve in an X-Frame that I'm going to put this in and see what happens. My thoughts are to simplify the setup so I can more easily isolate any issues. Also, going to take a really close look at the power tube.

[superman]

If it is leaking with the smallest carrier, then you need to change the oring.

[superman]

If you go through several orings, the power tube could be leaking.

[Myrkul]

Definitely get a new carrier "o" ring in there. Since covid "o" ring tolerances have gone downhill across the board, I know Tim has complained about it, and it's been causing Nova nothing but headaches too. When I have to rebuild a level 10 I usually order 3-5 carrier "o" rings, and usually 2 of those won't work regardless of the carrier. Just keep changing them out until you find one that works like it's supposed to. Luckily "o" rings are cheap.

[nak81783]

1. Are you tightening the field strip screw with a wrench? Misalignment can cause a leak. You can actually change the tone/rate of the leak by loosening/tightening the screw. You don’t have to put a cheater bar on it, but finger tight (no wrench) usually isn’t good enough for proper alignment.

2. You’re not running any shims in the Level 10 are you? Only use shims if it won’t vent the air when it pinches a ball/hits an obstruction. Otherwise, they can cause leaks by moving the oring behind the little vent hole on the bolt stem. Original Level 10 instructions said to put 2 shims in but that was later debunked.

3. I’ll also reiterate, as I mentioned it in the other current Level 10 bug thread, that I’ve had better luck with millable gum 90 durometer orings from theoringstore.com than the cast urethane 90D that AGD uses. You could try a buna 90D in there (maybe even a 70D) for now. It may seal, but it likely won’t last long.

Any one or more of the above points will restart your tuning process as follows:
A. Largest carrier that doesn’t leak.
B. Spring (trim gray/red if required) that lets the marker start shooting reliably about 30-50fps below desired velocity. This is for balanced reliability and gentleness on the paint. I honestly just ran the gold spring which started shooting reliably around 200fps and never had issues breaking or chopping if using a force feed loader.
C. Shims only as needed to let the bolt vent when it hits an obstruction.

ALWAYS use a barrel swab or similar to check the Level 10 sensitivity/tuning/venting. NEVER use your finger (or tongue, like Tom did).

My only persistent issues with Automag reliability were in the early days of the Level 10, trying to tune it to be unnecessarily gentle on paint. Too tight of a carrier and too long/stiff of a spring sacrificed reliability. It would work fine when freshly oiled, but a few hundred rounds into the day, it would frequently get bolt stick, typically leaving me hitting the side of the marker or degassing/re-gassing in the middle of a fight in futile attempts to alleviate the issue.

[dzslozt]

Do you have the part number handy for those "millable gum 90 durometer" o-rings?  The sizing chart I have for the rings, does not include the one for the carrier.

[dzslozt]

Well, I found it. Was the carrier o-ring. Myrkul funny you should mention Nova. I have one of those too. The team I play with is sponsored by them and we've seen issues with the o-rings. Right now, the 000 carrier is still in there, and I'm back to bolt stick. Now that I know why it kept leaking, I can get back to tuning this thing! nak81783 I will have to order up some of those substitution o-rings you mentioned. Be nice to have some on hand, just in case this happens again. Putting your tongue into the breach?? LOL, in today's age where I have seen people do the most stupid things, I suspect someone actually did... Also, for clarity:

I am not using any shims (those come later).
I do have a rail bushing, and I tighten it with an Allen wrench every time.
superman I used a bore light and closely inspected the power tube for scratches / gouges. None found. Your comment made me check

[superman]

I was referring to the threaded portion leaking.
Makes sure you continue to use the same oring as you step up in carrier sizes.
The shims control when the bolt begins to vent.

[dzslozt]

Thanks man. I did check the threads too. Fresh o-ring on the tip as well. I'll use the same o-ring as you suggested. I also have a small supply of them, just in case.

[superman]

I am referring to the stainless piece to the aluminum body not the power tube tip threads. This is much more difficult to diagnose and not something i would chase, unless you really can't resolve the leak.

[nak81783]

Tom Kaye put his tongue in front of the bolt as a sales video for the Level 10.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro05gOfEWDI

[dzslozt]

And there it is. That is damn soft.