TiPX - Older Valve with CO2

[nak81783]

Working on a TiPX for a friend. It’s never worked right for him in the 6 or so years he had it. After a quick diagnosis, the sluggish recharge and delayed firing were due to the firing valve actuator pin o-rings being too compressed by the threaded firing valve pin guide. This didn’t let the actuator pin move freely enough for proper function. Unthreading the guide just a bit solved the issue. Needed a handful of other non-critical parts and o-rings to make it whole again. After a full disassembly, cleaning, lubrication, and reassembly, it works as it should on 12 gram CO2 cartridges.

Anyway, the valve is the older (non-TCR) style that can’t get over 235-ish fps on HPA. I got it up to 310fps on 12 gram CO2 cartridges before it started blowing up the paint.

If both gases are regulated by the internal regulator, why can’t the older valve get higher velocities in HPA? Only thing I can think of is liquid CO2 is getting past the reg, expanding resulting in a higher post-reg pressure than HPA, but not high enough to vent via the safety relief feature.

He wants to run a remote line. Cost of adapter and remote are constant whether running HPA or CO2, but the upgraded valve is $70. A 9oz CO2 tank is $20 or less, leaving $50 for CO2 fills. For how often he’ll use it, the upgraded valve will take a while to pay off.

If the CO2 tank is mounted vertically in a pouch and then runs through a remote, won’t that virtually eliminate liquid getting past the reg? If so, will the older valve be able to reach higher velocities with this CO2 method? Does it rely on some liquid getting past the reg to reach higher velocities?

I’ll be borrowing a CO2 tank from a friend in a week or so to test this out, but I wanted some thoughts beforehand.

I did e-mail Tippmann. I’ve read they upgraded the internals for free, but I’m not optimistic on a marker this old. I pinged them again but no response after 11 days.

Thanks.

[Trbo323]

Liquid is not getting past it's just that CO2 is more energy dense than HPA. What you are experiencing is a known thing for tipx owners

Tippmann kind of messed up with that. They designed that pistol around 12g and seemingly never even tried anything else before sending it off to production

Upgraded internals and a slightly longer barrel usually do the trick

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[nak81783]

Thanks for the response. I guess the test I’ll do later will tell.

CO2 is more energy dense in a given tank volume because it’s stored in mostly liquid form. Only enough liquid changes to gas form until the tank pressure is around 850 psi. The rest remains liquid until pressure drops from shooting, and the cycle repeats.

The TiPX regulator allows a given pressure regardless of gas. The valve is a given volume regardless of gas. This results in the same energy regardless of gas.

Something has to be going on post-regulator that allows the CO2 to be at a higher pressure, since the volume of the valve is constant. My guess is liquid past the valve since
the 12 gram is positioned horizontally. This is bolstered by the fact I’ve seen liquid shoot out the barrel in certain circumstances (usually high rates of fire) and I’ve gotten some
CO2 liquid splattered on my face out the reg venting safety hole (again usually during rapid fire).

One other thought is if CO2 “flows” better than HPA, allowing more efficient use of the valve volume for the given
dwell time the valve opens to shoot the air through the bolt.

[mmblake]

Do they still sell the long distance kit for the Tipx?

[Trbo323]

Thanks for the response. I guess the test I'll do later will tell.

CO2 is more energy dense in a given tank volume because it's stored in mostly liquid form. Only enough liquid changes to gas form until the tank pressure is around 850 psi. The rest remains liquid until pressure drops from shooting, and the cycle repeats.

The TiPX regulator allows a given pressure regardless of gas. The valve is a given volume regardless of gas. This results in the same energy regardless of gas.

On paper and in theory this is correct. In the real world it doesn't work exactly like this. It shows up in odd places, like how a STBB piranha will dry fire fine on CO2 but not the same pressure of HPA. It has nothing to do with the tank size

My personal theory on it is that there are small amounts of CO2 vapor that are still in the gas. Since the CO2 goes through an endothermic reaction and chills to boil off into a gas these small amounts of vapor are kept as "liquid" because they are so cold even though the pressure around them should allow them to boil off into a gas. When you fire, the sudden drop in pressure allows the vapors to all immediately turn to gas which results in higher velocity on CO2

Again, that's a theory, I have no proof other than I work in the propane industry and propane has fairly similar properties. On a regular basis I see liquid propane because much of the liquid that was around it boils off. Even though it's sitting in the open and is much under the pressure threshold that should allow it to boil off that small amount of liquid has had so much heat sucked out of it that it can no longer boil and has to absorb heat from the surroundings in order to boil off into a gas



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[nak81783]

Ok. I think we’re on the same page or at least in the same ballpark. I’m saying “liquid”; you’re saying “vapor”. My intent was just that it’s not pure gas form post-regulator, which expands post-regulator, resulting in higher velocity with CO2.

Should be able to do the test late next week. Might not prove either of our ideas, but it’ll let me know if it’s a lower cost option for my friend.

[nak81783]

Do they still sell the long distance kit for the Tipx?

Yes. Does it attain higher velocities on HPA? It’s more than the upgraded valve, but it does offer more as well - FSR capability, magazine, etc.

[nak81783]

Ran the test with a CO2 tank and remote line. Made extra sure the tank stayed vertical during the test. It was at the same velocity as a 12 gram but much more consistent in velocity - about a 15 fps total spread. 12 gram was around 30 fps total spread, taken over shots 5-10, to avoid initial spikes and trail off as the cartridge depleted.

So CO2 hits velocity regardless of source.

[nak81783]

Well, Tippmann never responded after three attempts, but tippmannparts.com stated it only needed the newer regulator assembly to hit the higher velocity. I put my regulator in my friend's TiPX and sure enough, it was shooting at higher velocities. I was able to get over 300 fps.

My valve has the black powertube. His is all silver/raw aluminum (might be clear anodized, I don't know). Don't feel like cracking them open again to see if there are differences in the chambers. Maybe both are modern chambers, but he still has an older regulator (his doesn't have the adjustable bleed pressure relief parts, nor does mine)? Perhaps the newer regulator has a larger volume, and that's what allows higher velocity on HPA - don't know for sure.

Just wanted to post this in case it might be useful to someone else in the future. PM or tag me if anyone needs more info. I tend to clean up stagnant subscriptions after a while.