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What's the relationship between psi, pin length, and trigger pull length on automags?

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    What's the relationship between psi, pin length, and trigger pull length on automags?

    Maybe this should have been in the AGD sub but figured it would get more of a discussion here.

    Ok this is something I still haven't been able to find a clear answer on. I will preface this with I know there is a bit (read: large) debate on using a ULT vs RT on off to achieve RT but I think the general physics of my question should apply to both.

    Obviously more pressure leads to more RT (and recharge does play a role there too) while shorter pins also lead to more RT. But my main question is do they both give the same trigger feel or is there a point to choose one over the other.

    With both the ULT and RT on/off if you have a shorter pin length (or more shims in a ULT to achieve the same relationship) the trigger has to cycle less of a distance to shut the on/off and release the bolt, so conversely the pressure has to push it back less distance to reset. At the same time more pressure will push harder which, on paper, should be able to overcome the longer over lap length caused by the longer pin.

    Basically I guess what I am really still trying to understand is if you control RT with pressure over pin length/shims do you get different characteristics in the trigger pull (more or less BPS, more or less risk of chuffing, more or less controllability, etc).

    And a bit of a related question, has anyone noticed differences in characteristics with more or less post travel on a trigger after the shot? I have a trigger with stops and am wondering if having more slack after the shot should really cause notable changes to the trigger characteristics.

    Of course the simple solution would be for me to just go out and try these configurations but my closest field is 45 mins away and my normal field is over an hour, and I don't get to play much so I would prefer to not waste a couple hours playing with things and reshimming a tank multiple times if I can at least get a better understanding form the cumulative knowledge around here.

    For what it's worth I had my Vale set up with a ULT, 4 shims, and 975psi in and it was perfect after the rebuild, then all of a sudden it went crazy on me. Still havent gotten a chance to air it back up after dealing with all that and rebuilding the ULT (long story short I though the pin got bent which caused the issues but I likely some how bent the pin inspecting it) and then realized my tank reg was super dirty from a dirty tank so I may have actually had much higher output pressure than though... but it did still feel bouncier with a different tank at lower pressure so I am skeptical about the tank being an issue.

    Maybe no one has really broken this down yet but I figure at least someone has oppinions on how the two adjustments can provide different characteristics.

    Thanks

    #2
    Generally i try to use less pressure, faster recharge and a shorter pin. I think it is easier to control overall. I think it also has less variance in velocity. This has been the reason i have been pushing people to use the powerhouse regs. It is also the reason i used the old red crossfire regs for the longest time.
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      #3
      Originally posted by superman View Post
      Generally i try to use less pressure, faster recharge and a shorter pin. I think it is easier to control overall. I think it also has less variance in velocity. This has been the reason i have been pushing people to use the powerhouse regs. It is also the reason i used the old red crossfire regs for the longest time.
      Hmm interesting. I used to have a red crossfire back in the day and could never get any real good RT out of my mag with either the ULT (I think I had 5 shims jammed in there back then) or the RT (but I think I only had a 750 pin then).

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        #4
        I've really wondered about bps around an RT as well. It seems to be wildly different depending on the setup but nobody has really explained how to control it.

        My own setup for example, x valve with an RT pin. Seems to sit around 15-18 bps. Which is fine, I don't want anything wild, if acting I might want it down more but it's also more difficult to sustain the RT than I would like. I typically can only shoot in small bursts. 5-8 balls before it drops out of RT.

        If I could have the best of both worlds I would really like that

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          #5
          Originally posted by Trbo323 View Post
          I've really wondered about bps around an RT as well. It seems to be wildly different depending on the setup but nobody has really explained how to control it.

          My own setup for example, x valve with an RT pin. Seems to sit around 15-18 bps. Which is fine, I don't want anything wild, if acting I might want it down more but it's also more difficult to sustain the RT than I would like. I typically can only shoot in small bursts. 5-8 balls before it drops out of RT.

          If I could have the best of both worlds I would really like that

          Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk
          That is kind of my goal to figure out here. I had that perfect balance at first on my marker with the ULT installed. Easily controllable single shots but also easy to RT. If I tried I could get the chrono to read 25 bps and I wouldn’t really sustain RT on field generally and it was for sure a lower BPS.

          personally I don’t love the feel of the RT on off but I also put the ULT in my mag on 2006 and then only have ever used the RT of/off once on field when I thought I was having issues driven by the ULT (but now I am thinking the RT may have just helped control other issues that were the cause).

          thinking about this now though, I wonder how it would work if you could run a little screw into the air pathway running to the top of the on/off. Basically set up like a needle valve to be able to adjust the flow to the on/off. I would think that may actually be a way to have some more fine tuning… if someone wants to risk destroying a valve lol.

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            #6
            I always just used air input pressure to achieve the desired RT effect with adjustable regulators like the MaxFlo and Armageddon. With those I can just crank up the pressure to 950-1000psi and most RT/X valves I've had will happily rapidfire away, not just because of the pressure but also because those regs have a very good flow/recharge rate.

            The reason I usually don't mess with the pin length is because the 'rt' effect is really just a gimmick for playing around at the chrono. I want to be able to get rid of the effect without having to remove the valve to swap on/off pins. I just turn down the air pressure.

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              #7
              That would be a fun trial. Getting it to seal up might be a little challenging but nothing the MCB brain trust couldn't do i imagine

              superman have any RT or x valves laying around you care to drill holes in?

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                #8
                Originally posted by Trbo323 View Post
                That would be a fun trial. Getting it to seal up might be a little challenging but nothing the MCB brain trust couldn't do i imagine

                superman have any RT or x valves laying around you care to drill holes in?

                Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk
                Honestly just a grub screw with a channel cut into it for a small 90 duro ring probably would be enough to work... but I am not an engineer just decent at problem solving haha. Maybe even just a good coat of VC3 would allow adjustment and keep it sealed too, it is a lot of pressure there but also would be a rather small surface area.

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                  #9
                  So you basically would want a more complicated ult. Unless you are talking about trying to control the flow through the on/off, which doesn't really matter because the reg has a direct fill port to the dump chamber. Or did I miss something.


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                    #10
                    Originally posted by superman View Post
                    So you basically would want a more complicated ult. Unless you are talking about trying to control the flow through the on/off, which doesn't really matter because the reg has a direct fill port to the dump chamber. Or did I miss something.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    Well the thought is that the air flows though the small passage way to the top of the on/off which is what resets the on/off sine less pressure or flow both basically result in less pressure at the top of the on/off being able to cut that passage way down would (in theory) be able to reduce the return force of the on/off regardless of if its RT or ULT. In theory it would allow you to adjust that flow path externally without having to degas or take anything apart thus allowing you to adjust the return force.

                    So basically a screw to act as a needle valve where the red bar is on the image

                    (ETA: ignore the extra little horizontal red lines I some how clicked paces I didnt mean to and am just too lazy to go fix it and reuplaod it)Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot 2024-08-30 at 10.53.12 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	73.5 KB ID:	584846

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                      #11
                      dont use set screws to stop trigger travel on an Automag. The gun was designed for a full pull and a full release. You will wipe out the sear and bolt much faster

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by tunaman5 View Post
                        dont use set screws to stop trigger travel on an Automag. The gun was designed for a full pull and a full release. You will wipe out the sear and bolt much faster
                        Does that apply the same with the ULT?

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by SR_matt View Post

                          Does that apply the same with the ULT?
                          yes it does. The ULT was designed for LIGHTER trigger pull...not shorter

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