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One weird mag, one leaky mag

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    #1

    One weird mag, one leaky mag

    Ok MCB brain trust. I have a bit of an oddball for you today.

    In his never ending quest to try and defeat me, Super Nova handed me 2 automags. First appearance was pretty simple. For reference I'll be referring to them as 1. Minimag and 2. ULE mag. Both have classic AIR valves, the minimag has a 32 degrees mech frame and the ULE has a hyper frame on it. I haven't exhausted everything I want to try but figured I would get some second opinions in case I'm overlooking something stupid.

    Minimag airs up, no problems whatsoever. Shoots velocity, and is as crisp as a fresh picked apple.

    ULE mag on the other hand, has been nothing but problems.

    First had a leak and wouldn't shoot. Leak was sometimes light sometimes heavy. figured out it had the wrong on/off for the hyper frame , got the correct one in it, now, it has a massive leak down the barrel but does cycle. I haven't chronoed it yet, there actually might be enough air coming down the barrel to the point that it might push a ball.

    So, everything I read pretty much everywhere says a leak down the barrel has to be the power tube (PT) o ring. Makes sense, try the smallest PT spacer I have, no luck, new o ring, no luck. In the AGD manual it says to inspect the PT for damage or cracks, none found but since I have this working minimag with the same valve I figure I'll just grab the parts from it and try them.

    I opened up the PT on the minimag to find this weird thing. Minimag parts are on bottom, ULE parts on top. Has anyone ever seen that spring for a PT spacer before? I've never seen that but hey, it works so no complaints there.



    Anyway, swapped things in one at a time with no luck, ended up putting the whole minimag front end in the photos onto the ULE air valve and nothing whatsoever changed. Still a massive leak down the barrel.

    So here's my questions,

    1) has anyone ever experienced a leak in-between the power tube shaft and the main body of the valve? I'm not sure how the power tube itself is fixed to the rest of the valve

    2) I'm wondering if it's possible for the leak to actually be coming from the on/off but because of the hyper frame having so little space for air to come down through it the easiest way for the air to get out is to basically shoot forward. Anyone ever seen that?



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    #2
    Spring - predates spacers, old but works. I prefer springs in my non-lvl10 Mags.

    The powertube threads onto the dump chamber and is sealed with an oring. It's also laser welded into place on nearly every valve out there, so unlikely a potential leak point.

    I'll leave the rest to the more Mag-savvy crowd.
    And God turned to Gabriel and said: “I shall create a land called Canada of outstanding natural beauty, with majestic mountains soaring with eagles, sparkling lakes abundant with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, and rivers stocked with salmon. I shall make the land rich in oil so the inhabitants prosper and call them Canadians, and they shall be praised as the friendliest of all people.”

    “But Lord,” asked Gabriel, “Is this not too generous to these Canadians?”

    And God replied, “Just wait and see the neighbors I shall inflict upon them."
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    • Grendel
      #2.1

      Grendel

       commented
      09-04-2024, 07:53 AM
      Editing a comment
      I'm with you on the springs it is my preferred method of Power Tube setup for Level 7 setups. I never really had problems but then I never tuned my mags to be right at the bleeding edge. As pointed out by @RuleOfShines BPS challenge me hitting north of 5-6 BPS is not really happening >.<
      Last edited by Grendel; 09-04-2024, 09:48 AM.
    #3
    Picture of the back of the bolt and a side view of both valve without the bolt on would help.

    Same as Jordan and Grendel, never had issue with spring as spacer for L7 valve. I am not patient enough to test many spacer and find out I miss the one I need...
    💀Team Ragnastock💀

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      #4
      Not all classic valves are laser welded. Not all of them are threaded either.
      BeardedWorks.com (Your Inception Designs and Shocktech Dealer)
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      I buy Automags and Mag Parts also.

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        #5
        Originally posted by Alexndl View Post
        Picture of the back of the bolt and a side view of both valve without the bolt on would help.

        Same as Jordan and Grendel, never had issue with spring as spacer for L7 valve. I am not patient enough to test many spacer and find out I miss the one I need...
        Ule mag

        Minimag


        Minimag on right, ULE on left



        Also, I just realized both valves say minimag on the side. Besides the labeling is there any actual difference between the classic and minimag labeled valves?

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          #6
          Ok. It's a threaded power tube, got it apart and replaced the o ring just to make sure. No change.

          It's definitely air getting past the PT o ring. Problem is I can't figure out how.

          The bolt slides on the PT pretty easily until the last quarter inch. With the PT off of the valve I can see this restriction is the bolt stem going into the PT o ring.

          So, I pushed the bolt on pretty hard. Made sure the stem was into the PT o ring and reassembled everything.

          The leak is still there but not as bad. Decrease in air flow down the barrel.

          If I fire once it shoots and then the bolt does not completely reset and the leak is back to loud and aggressive

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            #7
            Originally posted by Trbo323 View Post
            If I fire once it shoots and then the bolt does not completely reset and the leak is back to loud and aggressive
            Try the bolt spring from the one that works

            Comment

              #8
              Set the Hyper Frame and that on/off to the side. Do all valve, bolt, and power tube guts combinations work with the mech frame and standard/Classic on/off?

              Make sure to snug the field strip screw with a wrench. Otherwise, alignment issues can cause leaks and/or bolt stick.

              What on/off are you using with the Hyper Frame - RT, ULT, or the actual one that came with the Hyper Frame?

              Also, hard to tell from the pics, but that light blue bumper looks really thick. Is it the same thickness as the other one? If thicker, it could be holding the bolt too far forward, keeping it from sealing when assembled.

              Edit: Couple more things to check.
              1. Worn or chipped sear. If both look good, swap to see if problem follows one.
              2. Do both rails have rail bushings present?
              Last edited by nak81783; 09-04-2024, 08:59 PM.

              Comment

                #9


                Originally posted by jdgreen76 View Post

                Try the bolt spring from the one that works
                Good idea

                Originally posted by nak81783 View Post
                Set the Hyper Frame and that on/off to the side. Do all valve, bolt, and power tube guts combinations work with the mech frame and standard/Classic on/off?
                I was thinking about this as well. I'll give that a shot next time

                Make sure to snug the field strip screw with a wrench. Otherwise, alignment issues can cause leaks and/or bolt stick.
                The bolt isn't sticking though. Remember, it's still shooting so the bolt is catching the sear

                What on/off are you using with the Hyper Frame - RT, ULT, or the actual one that came with the Hyper Frame?
                The one that came with the hyper frame

                Also, hard to tell from the pics, but that light blue bumper looks really thick. Is it the same thickness as the other one? If thicker, it could be holding the bolt too far forward, keeping it from sealing when assembled.
                Same size, but I also put that other bolt with it's own bumper in and out didn't change anything

                Edit: Couple more things to check.
                1. Worn or chipped sear. If both look good, swap to see if problem follows one.
                2. Do both rails have rail bushings present?
                1. Sear looks good

                2. Not sure I'll double check. Even without it though shouldn't the front frame screw hold the rail at the proper spacing?


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                  #10
                  I do send him the most odd stuff I have, I wish it was intentional but it’s not lol.
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                  WTB: ICD stuff, single trigger electro frames

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                    #11
                    Originally posted by Super Nova View Post
                    I do send him the most odd stuff I have, I wish it was intentional but it's not lol.
                    Yes he does. The tribal I have I had all rebuilt and ready to go but he wanted a different frame on it. So I swap the frames which took some doing because the boards were different. I'm in the middle of bolting up a few last things and I pick it up only to find that the whole grip frame is hot. Get the grips off in a hurry and had to disconnect the battery with a wrench and pliers it was so hot.

                    Turns out the board in the single trigger frame has enough solder on the back side of it that the battery terminals on the board were poking into the grip and the grip has an aluminum backer.

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                      #12
                      Tighten field strip screw with wrench: Prevents alignment issues that can cause minor leaks to major leaks to bolt stick depending on how far out of alignment things are. Typically, you can change the tone of the leak (or hopefully make it go away altogether) by slightly tightening or loosening the field strip screw while the marker is gassed up.

                      Rail bushing: This is typically required for proper spacing. If absent it allows the valve to sit further back, such that when the bolt catches on the sear, the bolt is further away from
                      the power tube bolt stem o-ring than intended. I found an old post of mine on AO from 2005 where this was my problem with a barrel leak on a Level 7 setup.

                      Comment

                        #13


                        Originally posted by nak81783 View Post
                        2. Do both rails have rail bushings present?
                        You son of a bitch you nailed it.

                        It's always something stupid

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                          #14
                          Glad I could help. I’ve used plastic to shim it while waiting for the new one to arrive in the mail.

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