Help with cocker/sniper springing

[Drcemento]

I have had an OG cocker laying around that I wanted to make into a sniper.
Not 100% on even what I had done to this thing in the past, but I took it apart and found Nelson innards, and started fiddling with springing. Could not get velocity below 340. Finally figured I’d start snipping the springs because it became clear they were just to long. It worked fairly well. I was able to get a stable velocity in the 280 range in testing. When I played with it it became more inconsistent ant at times - thinking it might be unregged co2? ( I had an anti siphon on it.)

wanted to take a photo of the guts and see what everyone thinks. Looking for ways to tweak on it and get it better. It looks like I had to cut down the valve spring as well as the main spring I showed a standard main spring for comparison.

what’s going on here - why are the spring lengths needing to be so short - is it because of the long Rex velocity screw unit ( it think that’s the right term) - it is very deep compared to a standard threaded IVG. Was it normal to have shorter springs back then?

how could I make it better? Love this gun with a docs P-stock. Want to keep it un -regg’d and understand the consequences of that.

[gabe]

First did you try backing out the IVG main spring adjuster at the back? Second you need to get a spring kit before continuing down this path. Cutting springs isn't ideal for getting the best efficiency and consistency.

The lower tube you have there looks okay but it's a later setup that can run lower pressures. You might look into getting an earlier model valve or possibly a Palmers HP valve. Bacci paintball has the old style hammers that are hourglass shaped and lighter for high pressure use. That body is pre-97 spec so the valve spring will be shorter than newer spring kits. Make sure to plan around that when buying springs.

[iamthelazerviking]

I applaud those who use dialers and Nelson springs in snipers/cockers. I gave up trying that and stick to 2k+ with IVG.
As mentioned above, getting different springs to test out. Not sure about unregged co2, I've never liked not using a regulator (and compressed air). Palmer's Stabilizer does great with CO2 if you wanted to keep using CO2 but have extra adjustability.

[Drcemento]

It’s true - I have a couple snipers made from 2K bodies and it sure makes life easier. I also have a couple stabs that I could commit to the cause, but it is a pump gun in the end and I have phantoms and SL-68s that do just fine. More of a fun challenge than anything and it’s got such a great old school look with no reg.

[Drcemento]

Thanks Gabe,
Good ol’ Bacci - piles of weird old parts. Sounds I’d want to try a Sheridan style hammer - looks like they range from 30-40 grams and couple that with an “official” a shorter spring - 1 5/8” also from Dan. Then to really soup it up I want a “HP low turbulence valve, sniper” from palmers?

looks like you get what you get with the 1 5/8” springs from Dan in terms of tension. Anybody still make a kit that gives options or does it matter that much at higher pressures with unregg’d Co2?

[Hellion360]

I have a sheridan hammer and dialer available, but not the spring that goes with them. (unless I find it, which I probably won't)

[gabe]

Thanks Gabe,
Good ol’ Bacci - piles of weird old parts. Sounds I’d want to try a Sheridan style hammer - looks like they range from 30-40 grams and couple that with an “official” a shorter spring - 1 5/8” also from Dan. Then to really soup it up I want a “HP low turbulence valve, sniper” from palmers?

looks like you get what you get with the 1 5/8” springs from Dan in terms of tension. Anybody still make a kit that gives options or does it matter that much at higher pressures with unregg’d Co2?

I actually just remembered those sheridan hammers use a totally different type of spring. They use basically old sheridan springs which were very small diameter. You need a hammer that uses Nelson springs if you want to use that dialer velocity adjuster.

TBH I'm somewhat out of my element when it comes to HP snipers/cockers. The Palmers HP valve is a nice to have but it doesn't work any better than original style high pressure valves for snipers. The most efficient setup is actually a regulated LP setup if you're running 12 grams. I know the wonders of running a vertical 4 oz on a sniper (my first sniper was a '95 run that way with a WGP ammo box) but the pump stroke suffers from how heavy the springs have to be. If you can get your hands on a full old style sheridan sprung lower tube that's your best bet out of the box without messing with springs. The body you have should be set up for it.

[Drcemento]

Hmmm. Now I’m confused. i think i remember this particular cocker having the Sheridan springs. Wonder what i did with them…

Dan has the shorter springs - so i could just keep the hammer and the dialer i have and put a more currect length spring in and it might work better. Palmer valve may also help, or find a full Sheridan kit.

Alternately Can i tap the rear end to accept an IVG? Was’t that a common mod around 99? It’s just a 3/4”-24 thread right? Are there odd length differences that would get in the way of that?

[OpusX]

I actually just remembered those sheridan hammers use a totally different type of spring. They use basically old sheridan springs which were very small diameter. You need a hammer that uses Nelson springs if you want to use that dialer velocity adjuster.

Yeppers they are PGP springs. Pic from paintballhistory for reference. I don't see why you should need to change anything except just trying other combos of Nelson springs.

I would try to find a dialer instead of tapping things. Outside of here, bacci, or the bay, I'm not sure where I would look.

[gabe]

Opus is on it. Your gun is set up with Nelson springs which only differ from modern autococker springs in having a shorter valve spring. If you get a "dialer" or a velocity adjuster and a few different (heavy) main springs you should be set to start tuning.

Sorry to make this so confusing. It's strange that it's so difficult to get a sniper/cocker to run high pressure when they originally came that way. Sign of how far they've evolved I guess.

[Grendel]

For a Sniper/Autococker there are two different types of "Nelson" springs. One is setup up to use with a dialer (REX Dialer being the first) which have the same diameter as Nelson hammer springs but are shorter in length. The other "Nelson" Springs are the same diameter but longer and are meant to be used with IVGs. Originally when the dialers first came out we would use normal Nelson hammer springs and cut them down to work. It is doable but a PITA to go that route. Later on Pro-Team and other companies started supplying shorter length springs with the correct spring rates (softer in general). A Sniper with a Rex Dialer will have a smaller "sweet spot" for the hammer spring tension then most paintballers are used to dealing with and require more attention to spring swaps to get them set up but once set up are as solid as any other setup. Remember it is not just about the Hammer spring it is also about the valve spring to they work in concert to get the appropriate dwell for the main valve dependent upon the pressure and volume you have behind the valve.

Just to be clear, you actually have a Dialer for your marker, it is hard to tell by your image? There are non-adjustable "Nelson" backs out there too.

You can always tap the body for an IVG there is a reason the marker went the way of the IVG.

[OpusX]

Just to be clear, you actually have a Dialer for your marker, it is hard to tell by your image? There are non-adjustable "Nelson" backs out there too.

Good point, I hadn't looked closely at that, just assumed it was a flat back plug. The center of that plug should be a hex screw. Remove your cocking rod as normal (if it isn't a Rex dialer style) and adjust as normal.

Drcemento Heck, post a pic of that thing from the rear (twss).

[OpusX]

Lets make this more complicated. The pre-98 adjustable ivg plugs were two styles; rex/side screw and center screw.

The center screw style essentially made it act like the modern ivg setup. You remove the cocking rod, and adjust the center screw.

---Center Screw Style---


The advantage of the Rex dialer was that it had a side adjustment screw, and could be manipulated without the need to remove the cocking rod.

[Drcemento]

It’s a center dialer alright. But there is no way it will work with a 2” Nelson main spring. 1 5/8” would be about right but those are hard to come by save for Bacci, and he has no options as to tension.

[gabe]

Is the dialer backed all the way out? The springs I have none of them are as short as 1 5/8". Even the one that came in my '97 cocker was just 1/8" shorter than the norm. The hammer is supposed to rest against the valve with some tension on it.

What makes you think spring length is a problem? Are you getting the valve sticking open after a shot or some other symptom?

[Drcemento]

Dialer is all the way out for sure. Spring seats around it like it should. .
Its a good point maybe I’m missing something.

The whole thing came about when I fired it up and could not get the velocity to go below like 340 no matter what combo of springs I put in it - and i have a big pile of springs to chose from. It wasn’t until i started incrementally cutting one down that i started getting the velocity under control, and getting it to rest against the valve with that nice little bit of tension on it. Even the softest 2” spring would be to much.

I have a 99” cocker that i recently built out and got dialed in really nicely. It has a Rex dialer in it and a soft standard main spring. I measured everything with calipers everything is exactly the same - depth to Valve, hammer length, dialer length, dialer screw length, depth to valve pin.

So i think I need to go back through and try it all again and see if i just did something wrong. .