MQ2 Valve horrible efficiency

[Schroeder]

See attached pics of the settings I ended with. This is all on a karnivor with the stock STO ram with TRVs, tickler LPR, and karnivor HPR. The HPR is turned up all the way (turning set screw out) until vent and then maybe ¼ turn back in to drop the vent and be reliable. I don't have a chrono but velocity looks good and there is no drop-off at ramp. My peak ROF doesn't seem to be that great. Maybe 12-13 BPS with the halo V35 on setting 4 of 6. Do I just need to crank my lpr up a little and induce some kick for higher ROF?

The mq2 doesn't have the white spacer. I had the solenoid out of its housing to resolder the wires because I received it basically snipped off. I re-wrapped the coil in electrical taped and stuffed it back into the noid casing. I super glued the bottom shut.

Everything seems to work except it's HORRIBLY, HORRIBLY inefficient. I'm getting 400-700 shots off a 4000psi fill on a 68/4500 tank. I don't know what to address. These are my only ideas:

1.) I don't hear a leak from the grip frame, but I'm wondering if I need to replace the urethane black dot on the face of the solenoid plunger from when I had the assembly apart for the repair.

2.) Could the solenoid plunger spring be weak? If so, where can I get a new one? Custom cockers listed this as a century spring part, but the link is 404 now:

https://www.mwcomponents.com/locations/century-spring/products?referrer=century

It seems the original provider has been absorbed. I thought about calling and asking if they had the spring number for the magnetic sensor systems solenoid part number or asking magnetic sensor systems of they'd sell me just the solenoid plunger spring.

3.) Could I need a new poppet spring? That was listed on custom cockers as McMaster Carr. Part# 9435K74.

4.) I only added new valve body springs. I didn't chang the poppet seal or it's o-eings because they looked good. I did lube them up nice with dow 33. The static seals on the OD of the valve body and between the valve and solenoid housing were covered in dow 55.

What can I do to address this efficiency issue? I can't even tune the gun without having to run for a $10 air fill at the local dive shop every hour. It's so bad it's almost worrisome to try to use in a game because I won't be able to use even 3 pods.

[Roger7pball]

With your current cycle time of 77.50 ms, you can’t get above 12.90 bps. 1,000 ms / 77.50 ms = 12.9 bps.

If you’re trying to fire faster you can reduce the cocking solenoid off time. Any reduction in total cycle time will increase cycles per second.

[Schroeder]

With your current cycle time of 77.50 ms, you can’t get above 12.90 bps. 1,000 ms / 77.50 ms = 12.9 bps.

If you’re trying to fire faster you can reduce the cocking solenoid off time. Any reduction in total cycle time will increase cycles per second.

Doesn't that formula only apply when the eyes are off? Hat about the inefficiency aspect of the gun? What are the remedies? Do I need the white spacer? I found this in the bag of parts. It's the only thing sized this way. It's an p-eing o-ring of some kind. Is this the white spacer?

[warbosschoppa]

Yeah when the eyes are installed the cocking timings are overridden. Interesting to see that they aren't at the default values here. If your HPR is cranked like Jason Stathem and you're tuning the valve from that point your efficiency is gonna be shit. The spacer won't affect performance and efficiency so no need to worry about that. I would set set the HPR lower and sweetspot it with the board values.

[Schroeder]

Yeah when the eyes are installed the cocking timings are overridden. Interesting to see that they aren't at the default values here. If your HPR is cranked like Jason Stathem and you're tuning the valve from that point your efficiency is gonna be shit. The spacer won't affect performance and efficiency so no need to worry about that. I would set set the HPR lower and sweetspot it with the board values.

Thanks for the reply. Are there any guidelines for this process of sweetspotting in this manner? The window in the adjustment on my karni HPR between venting due to too high of pressure and venting due to too low of pressure is relatively small. I'd guess it's maybe 3-4 rotations. I suppose I could screw the adjustment out until venting and then screw it in to about the middle the adjustment window between venting.

What timing parameters should I expect to change in this scenario? Will SON have to increase to 5-6ms? Is it worth getting one of those CP reg gauge adapters ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/32281643534...mis&media=COPY ) for an HPR so I know right what my HPR is set at? Right now I'm just following the MQ instructions- crank it up to the venting point and back off until it stops leaking.

[Roger7pball]

According to the sci-fi manual the only timing that is overridden when eyes are enabled is the “Cocking Solenoid On Time”. So my recommendation of reducing the Off Time still applies.

[Schroeder]

According to the sci-fi manual the only timing that is overridden when eyes are enabled is the “Cocking Solenoid On Time”. So my recommendation of reducing the Off Time still applies.

Right. What does that mean max ROF is then? is it calculated by 1000/(COFF+CDEL)? Are any of the eye delays in the formula? I'll have to look in the sci-fi manual I guess. Since my ROF seems to be pretty close to the formula ROF= (1000/(CDEL+CON+COFF)) I wondered if any of the eye parameters like the Eye Hardware = Bounce/Boot are making the CON value come in to the equation.

Regardless of the ROF issues, how do I address the inefficiency? Roger7pball , I think you're suggesting to lower the HPR and then mess with the timing to get velocity where it needs to be. Won't decreasing HPR pressure and increasing dwell make my efficiency even worse? Post #17 in this thread from custom cockers references the PBX guys stating that efficiency increases with higher input pressure and lower dwell. That's why I started getting focused on the spacer.

[Roger7pball]

I would agree with Warboss that running your HPR near its max may not be the best for efficiency. If you have the patience I would learn the bell curve of your setup. HPR pressure vs ball velocity at different dwell points. Make sure your barrel bore is somewhat close to the balls you’re shooting. I ran into an issue of having to crank the hpr pressure to account for a massive over-bore.

I have limited time tuning autocockers and zero time messing with mq valves, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

[Schroeder]

I would agree with Warboss that running your HPR near its max may not be the best for efficiency. If you have the patience I would learn the bell curve of your setup. HPR pressure vs ball velocity at different dwell points. Make sure your barrel bore is somewhat close to the balls you’re shooting. I ran into an issue of having to crank the hpr pressure to account for a massive over-bore.

I have limited time tuning autocockers and zero time messing with mq valves, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

understood. thanks. My paint to bore match is very good. I've always ran cockers. Starting a day of play by sizing the paint to the barrel back has always been habit. I understand how important it is here. do you think it's necessary to get one of those inline adapters that screws into my HPR port that will allow me a low pressure gauge to determine the exact pressure the HPR is outputting? I know most guys just tune their MQ's my feel sound and the ole' guess and check method.

[dano_____]

The white spacer affects efficiency. You might be able to squeeze more efficiently out of it by dropping your solenoid on time a little and upping the pressure to compensate. This kind of negates the point of the mq2 valve though as it isn't as quiet as it could be. I was typically getting around 1100 shots per tank with my valve when I had one. With white spacer in my SON was 4ms.

[Schroeder]

The white spacer affects efficiency. You might be able to squeeze more efficiently out of it by dropping your solenoid on time a little and upping the pressure to compensate. This kind of negates the point of the mq2 valve though as it isn't as quiet as it could be. I was typically getting around 1100 shots per tank with my valve when I had one. With white spacer in my SON was 4ms.

Thanks for the reply. Magnetic Sensor Systems is sending me some of the spacers. I'll put one on and try this all again. The velocity seems good right now and the HPR can't really go any higher. I'm maybe 1/8 turn below the venting point. Since velocity is good (by eyeballing it- not actually chrono'ing it) I think if I drop the SON to 3.5-3.8ms I'm just going to see low velocity. I'll try though.

With the white solenoid plunger spacer installed and SON at 4ms were you running your HPR quite a bit below its venting point?

[dano_____]

Thanks for the reply. Magnetic Sensor Systems is sending me some of the spacers. I'll put one on and try this all again. The velocity seems good right now and the HPR can't really go any higher. I'm maybe 1/8 turn below the venting point. Since velocity is good (by eyeballing it- not actually chrono'ing it) I think if I drop the SON to 3.5-3.8ms I'm just going to see low velocity. I'll try though.

With the white solenoid plunger spacer installed and SON at 4ms were you running your HPR quite a bit below its venting point?

Yeah, I had quite a good amount of adjustment before it vented. I could run down to 250fps up to 325 with a good barrel match. I was using a cp reg.

[Schroeder]

Yeah, I had quite a good amount of adjustment before it vented. I could run down to 250fps up to 325 with a good barrel match. I was using a cp reg.

Thanks for the info. I'm curious, did you go through the same thing I'm going through to already know that the spacer definitely affects efficiency? Did you try your setup without it and then have to run it to increase efficiency?

[Trbo323]

That son timing is probably not helping. On a e2 board that would be maxing out the value and son is essentially your dwell.

What I would do is get it over Chrono and drop the son until you see a large drop in fps. Go up a few from there to make a safety buffer and call it good

Barrel bore and paint will be big helps as well

All that said, they are not the most efficient. Granted I have not done much efficiency tuning but I'm getting around 1200 on a 77/45

[Schroeder]

That son timing is probably not helping. On a e2 board that would be maxing out the value and son is essentially your dwell.

What I would do is get it over Chrono and drop the son until you see a large drop in fps. Go up a few from there to make a safety buffer and call it good

Barrel bore and paint will be big helps as well

All that said, they are not the most efficient. Granted I have not done much efficiency tuning but I'm getting around 1200 on a 77/45

Thanks. Vantrepes on pbnation suggested what you have here. I'm not sure why all the old threads don't talk more about the horrible efficiency at SON=4ms and why the PBX instructions tell users to raise their HPR to max venting pressure and then back off only slightly.

I use a 68/4500. I can live with 1000-1200 shots off a tank. 700 shots is absolutely not possible to live with though. There is absolutely a chance I'd need more than that in a game.

I ordered a chrono off Amazon. It's this one.

X-Radar Custom Chronograph Deluxe Handheld Chronograph https://a.co/d/3rpVGE0

ive been to fields in the past that have had this. It worked well. I'll start by definitively setting my velocity instead of eye-balling it. That's what I've done so far.

Paint to barrel match is superb. I always make sure of that.