help with getting a cocker to shoot over 220

[Tracker]

okay, normally im the person people ask for help, i have built several cockers, never had the problems like this thing is giving me..

for the sake of disclosure, its technically a Resurrection, but EVERYTHING is inception, so the only thing that makes it a resurrection is that the 3 way is in a different position from a WGP
onward

air is delivered from an ninja SL2 with pro V2 reg on it running at 450-425

asa is an EZ

HPR is a inception V3 set to about 300psi but varies based on adjustments, maxing it out does decrease the velocity, so its got enough pressure to be on the other side of the bell curve

LPR is an inception

valve is inception

hammer is inception

IVG is like like a half turn from flush (if im not in the ballpark or hot on first air up, the IVG aint gonna fix 80 FPS)



springs are from this kit, as per inceptions recommendation, hammer is B, valve is C (I had it running on the original black springs as well, and that didn't change anything)

i have 7 other paintball guns that use this same tank (and 4 others that also have the same ASA) with no velocity issues, a viking, an excal, 2k6 timmy, an DM3, a resurrection (that i also built), a pneumatic assist pump (that i built), and an m170R

im kinda at wits end here.. i have tried the A hammer spring but that hammer SMACKS the valve, you think the metal on metal of a firing pin dropping on an empty chamber sounds bad, i assure you, this is way worse

suggestions? harder valve spring? softer valve spring? softer hammer softer valve? cant really use the A hammer spring or else the gun wont re-cock (resurrection and inception LPR's are always almost maxed before reliable cycle for me, so i just assume they all just dont turn up very high)

i built this gun and never played with it. now that im playing again, i cant use it and its pissing me off. id love to blame the valve, as the other resurrection has a palmers LT valve in it and i dont have this kind of stress with that one, but i also believe that Simon wouldn't produce a bad valve, especially given how many guns he has sold with them in it

[Tracker]

okay, definitly something to consider, but with the heaviest main mine just hits the valve so hard, like you hear it and you first thought is "that doesnt sound right"

[SignOfZeta]

That may be because it isn’t opening all the way, sort of like how punching your hand through a wall doesn’t hurt as much as not punching it all the way through the wall.

[Tracker]

not quite following...
when the hammer bottoms out, it hits the valve face.. thats where the noise is coming from, the hammer face is hitting the rest of the valve face, the idea behind the wider stem face is to require LESS pressure to open the valve, on a dry fire the impact sounds like a solid hammer swing on an anvil, and you can feel the snap in your hands.. that seems like entirely too much impact force to me, and NO cocker i have ever built has required that hard of a main spring

i suppose it could be possible that the spring and pressure combined are pushing the valve closed too fast (i think thats what you meant).. softer valve spring would be the solution to that, right?

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, that’s what I meant. If it sounds bad degassed then that’s a problem but when aired up, if the valve isn’t opening enough, the extra hammer energy will be converted to noise...maybe sparks in your case.

Last year I converted a ‘99 to CO2 and I had similar issues. I did fix it with a Palmer LT valve but obviously that’s more because ‘99s aren’t supposed to run on CO2. If your valve spring is to strong or your main spring too weak you may see similar things as I did.

[Jordan]

Umm... 99 Cockers run fine on Co2, but any air source needs to be regulated down to 400psi on a 99 due to valve and air chambers differences compared to the 97ish and older Cockers.

[SignOfZeta]

UNREGULATED CO2 is what I meant to say, sorry.

[Magmoormaster]

I'd try a lighter valve spring first. A ressi with ID internals should be running in the low 200 PSI range. IIRC stock ressi's run in the 220-240 range, if you're running higher than that something's very wrong.

[Tracker]

i can step it down to a softer valve spring,

i tend to run at whatever pressure the internals want for sweet-spotting. 300 is just a good place to start.

the problem is that the 220 IS the sweetspot

[Tracker]

put in the softer spring, sounds terrible again

https://i.imgur.com/46COpci.mp4

this other one has the same hammer on an LT valve, and i "think" the stock spring for the ressy on the valve

https://i.imgur.com/xiAgyFA.mp4

[Tracker]

maybe it will play nicer with LP springing. If i cant get it up to velocity the efficient way, ill do it by sheer air mass.. lightest valve, second lightest hammer feels okay.. might let me run a lower cycling pressure too 🤔

[ChuckLove]

This may seem like a dumb question, but what trigger plate are you using? The Resurrection has a hump on the trigger plate which helps compensate for the inherit blowback that midblocks tend to have. Recently I tried putting an Inception Delrin "NOS" trigger plate in mine and had the exact issue you were having. I sent my gun (Resurrection) to DocFire who experienced the same issue and we decided to swap back to the original plate. That fixed the issue.

[Tracker]

the one with the velcity issue is the ripframe.

the camo one has a delrin hump plate plate in it with no issues

[ChuckLove]

Gotcha. This seems like a question for Simon, Tim Firpo or DocFire.

[Tracker]

ive been talking about it with simon. "this should work" gets said a lot between him and i

[SignOfZeta]

You may not be able to fix your cocker but you rule at image posting.

[Tracker]

thank you?

pictures will always win over descriptions

[Hellion360]

I would turn your LPR off and manually hold the bolt closed while shooting. (or hook your ram directly to your LPR holding it closed for you)
This will isolate your recocking from your firing completely. If the issue persists then you can rule out issues with your timing.

This will also let you check if your bolt is getting blowby while closed. Put a ball in the breach and one in the feed and see if the one in the feed pops out even while the bolt is closed.

[jerryjjackson69]

Double-check your bolt positioning when closed. The Resurrection mid-block sled needs to be spaced a little back (roughly .25") in the gap between the upper and lower tub, otherwise the forward valve sealing o-ring clears the rear of the breach and loses air up the feedneck to the point that you will struggle to reach chrono.

[Tracker]

I would turn your LPR off and manually hold the bolt closed while shooting. (or hook your ram directly to your LPR holding it closed for you)
This will isolate your recocking from your firing completely. If the issue persists then you can rule out issues with your timing.

This will also let you check if your bolt is getting blowby while closed. Put a ball in the breach and one in the feed and see if the one in the feed pops out even while the bolt is closed.

thats a good idea, i dont think the recock is that fast, but that definitely would rule out that as a factor (fault isolation is still fault isolation), will report back with updates

Double-check your bolt positioning when closed. The Resurrection mid-block sled needs to be spaced a little back (roughly .25") in the gap between the upper and lower tub, otherwise the forward valve sealing o-ring clears the rear of the breach and loses air up the feedneck to the point that you will struggle to reach chrono.

simon mentioned that and i checked, his rule of thumb is that the middle o-ring should be as close to not visible as possible, and in you back the bolt up until right when it disappears, im off from that by like a 1/32nd of an inch,, the only ways to get my bolt further forward involves loosening the ram one full turn or tightening the sled one full turn, and then using the ram shaft to fine tune it.

pin popped up, bolt as far forward as possible


pin installed, bolt forward

[jerryjjackson69]

I would say you're good to go on the spacing. Have you tried running the IVG in another 2 turns to see what ballpark that gets you? I would think you would be around 250 PSI or lower, that's the range I've always been able to run Empire Ressi/Sniper setups, but with stock springs the IVG is usually set more like a traditional WGP factory of ~2.5 turns in from flush.