Jack Wood should retro a new line of PE Autocockers

[Mr. Hick]

That's a gorgeous marker, and I'm in agreement: I think PE could make a good pile of bucks bringing back their Cocker line.

PE likely still have the specs for the classic Eclipse and Belsales parts, and those would sell handsomely. Updating could come later.

I don't think they would bring in big bucks at all. I think the profit margin would be slim as hell, and way outside their business model. I'm willing to bet you can produce about 5 170 series markers for the cost of one large, two hole brick of aluminum... before machining front block, ASA, back block, ram and LPR bodies. Not to mention the tooling time is probably %500 what it takes to tune up a aluminum tube.

A small batch of 2000 x $2000 = $4,000,000. That seems like a whole lot but I'm betting the after all is said and done it wouldn't pay the light bill for them.

[the_matrix_guy]

I don't think they would bring in big bucks at all. I think the profit margin would be slim as hell, and way outside their business model. I'm willing to bet you can produce about 5 170 series markers for the cost of one large, two hole brick of aluminum... before machining front block, ASA, back block, ram and LPR bodies. Not to mention the tooling time is probably %500 what it takes to tune up a aluminum tube.

A small batch of 2000 x $2000 = $4,000,000. That seems like a whole lot but I'm betting the after all is said and done it wouldn't pay the light bill for them.

You're such a party pooper, man. We're just trying to have a good time and shiz. And you come in here with all your facts. Aint nobody got time for that

+1

[Mr. Hick]

Someone has to play the devils advocate!

[russc]

If Eclipse really were to do this, I imagine it would be a promotional tool or loss-leader. I doubt it would pay off directly.

[SignOfZeta]

I don't think they would bring in big bucks at all. I think the profit margin would be slim as hell, and way outside their business model. I'm willing to bet you can produce about 5 170 series markers for the cost of one large, two hole brick of aluminum... before machining front block, ASA, back block, ram and LPR bodies. Not to mention the tooling time is probably %500 what it takes to tune up a aluminum tube.

A small batch of 2000 x $2000 = $4,000,000. That seems like a whole lot but I'm betting the after all is said and done it wouldn't pay the light bill for them.

Another thing to factor is that scaling a business up or down isn’t that easy. If you are some Ford level manufacturer and you want to built carbon tub supercars you are building a new line for that product. Very little of what “Ford” does is in a Ford GT, same with VWs and Bugatti. It’s probably not even built in the same country. For example, the Ford GT is assembled by a company that mainly does hand wrapped carbon fiber stuff in Canada...then they drop a (very non-standard) Taurus engine in and ship it to Texas.

If a company like this wants to make some super high end hand built cockers, someone has to be in charge of it. Someone good or else it will be overpriced garbage. That’s some talented person not working on something else. And who’s going to build them? A temp? Ha! Some guy in Taiwan who is used to building ten guns every time the machine cycles? It’s either someone vintage or someone who was recently trained. Then when the economy tanks you won’t be able to sell this gold plated goodie anymore. You can’t just cancel the product you have to close down the building you rented just for this product and fire everyone.

[the_matrix_guy]

Nothing I said was incorrect. Shocktech's initial batch of 2009 SFL's (completed guns) sold out pretty quickly. They always have body kits on hand. Even now. Simply, because they plan to keep making them guns. They will always have inventory. Fast forward from 2009 to 2020. And we now have pro mech leagues (a few years old already, but gaining more and more strength since 2017.) So I guess he had a bit of foresight in 2009? I talk to Danny Love. Hes already sold HUNDREDS of Shocktechs in just the last 4 years. I can tell you that people that work in the industry have a better reading of the market, of the PB scene, and have a finger on the pulse of the consumer. We all knew that mech was making a comeback as soon as the pro leagues capped the ROF at 10 BPS. This was something that happened at the grassroots level,and onto the pro tourney scene, and from the pro tourney scene down to grassroots. It's more than nostalgia as I've alluded previously. It's a return to what made the sport great in the first place. Something that got lost along the way,

And that's great that you knew of Air Challenger. It's completely irrelevant. I simply mentioned it as a side note since he brought up Taiwan. You know... as part of a conversation. I'm not here trying to score internet points. My point is that they did great work with those bodies. And that I wasn't aware of the Taiwanese co myself and the existence of a PB market in Taiwan. But none of those statements are "right" or "wrong." In fact, if anyone's wrong here, it's the people that are saying that there is no market for Autocockers. The market is just not big enough for PE to cater to it. That's all. And that's only because of PE's immense success. They have how many successful marker platforms/IP? Several. A handful counting their mech lineups. And revenues are the highest among the industry.

[Super69ur]

Uhhhh. Pretty sure Shocktech took a long ass time to sell all their 09’s. Initial 20 went fast. But then they couldn’t GIVE them away. TechPB’a supergun show said they lowered the price to $600 to liquidate. That’s insane.

[the_matrix_guy]

Nope. I bought a mint used 09 SFL in 2010 for a thousand bucks. That's how much they were going for. I would've gladly bought one for less if it was possible. And how do you figure that the new Shockechs have been selling for $1400, starting? Shouldnt they be $600 too since they cant move them?

[Super69ur]

Let’s just be happy Field1 is making a cocker.

[Knuckle Dragger]

I really want some love for us e-cocker guys. Modern frame ergonomics and solenoid options and new sweet body choices pre-drilled and ready for break beam eyes. We have a board option now, but we’re still the step children of the cocker world.
Would be neat if PE offered something along those lines to modernize their old eBlades.

[Super69ur]

Cockers are for mech. Go get a space gun if you want a battery! (I’m just joking, happen to agree with you.)

[the_matrix_guy]

Super69ur Do we know the specs yet? Wondering what the pneumatics will look like. I still put my money on Shocktech to make the better Cocker. Their pneus are only second to Belsales. That being said, the more manufacturers making Cockers, the better (obviously).

Knuckle Dragger I would totally buy a Nexus or PE Factory retro, granted that it's made with Belsales parts. DC's have been selling for $1600+ and barely last in the open market.

[Knuckle Dragger]

I’d definitely sell a DC2 for that price if I had one. I’m saving up for the mythical G7R to be my first new modern gun purchase.

[Super69ur]

Nothing is known. Expect WGP congruent specs. I have heard from a reliable source that the ARENT collaborating with FreeFlow, and they stick to standard specs. So the possibilities for different specs are THERE? Just not likely in my opinion.

Also. Shocktech’s pneumatics ARE great. Although I would recon that Inception and Dye/FF makes very competitive products.

[the_matrix_guy]

"A collaborative project between the designers at DYE LAB and Freeflow Technology." I'm really happy to see companies making new Autocockers & Autococker parts. Maybe DYE will also make its own line of Cockers again too. What I find interesting is that FF already has its own pneumatics. So it's interesting that they worked with DYE to make new ones. Whats the consensus on the DFF pneus? The 3-way sounds very interesting.

[the_matrix_guy]

Also , it's worth noting that the FF's sold out pretty quickly, albeit they were made in more limited runs/batches:




Er. Ultrawide monitor + having my TV connected via HDMI kinda skewed the SN.

Source: https://www.freeflowtechnology.com/guns

[Magmoormaster]

Well, they only made like 25-50 of each, until the Caliber.

[the_matrix_guy]

Yep, but that's still good money for a smaller co, especially. And they had no issues moving them. And as I alluded, Shocktech has sold hundreds. That is net profits well into the 6 figures.

[the_matrix_guy]

Some more Docs Warriors action pics from the 2019 pro scene, DW was picked up by Shocktech for next season, so they will all be shooting ST Cockers in 2020-2021:

[Super69ur]

The Dye/FF20 pneumatics? Are AWESOME.

the thing with FreeFlow: they sell out of EVERY gun they make, because they only do pre-order. They release the pre-order for 24 hours only. If they sell 240 like the Caliber, they make 240. If they sell 60 like the Lotus, they only make 60. So each one they make is spoken for.

[the_matrix_guy]

Good to know, thanks. And yes. But they sold a couple hundred between all of the different generations, minimally. It would be a good question for Ethan.

[the_matrix_guy]

All of the major fields are holding mech only events and bringing back hyperball, including my local field. Here's Badlands Fight Club Mechanical Event Series:










Find Nick Slowiak and win the internets for a day:




Aftershock:





Misfits:




Misfits: Rocky Cagnoni:




From ten months ago:



Source: https://www.picuki.com/media/2203431755502217850

[gabe]

Working in the aviation industry I see a very similar situation to paintball companies all the time. There's two types:

1. A small company started by a passionate owner that jumped into a niche market with low margins and is scrapping it out to make a buck and just barely making it but the fanbase for that niche is super enthusiastic about their product and keeps them in business but just barely.

2. Large company started by a business person who understands margins and how to run a company with a healthy bottom line and only gets involved in products with mainstream appeal that are well engineered but may not appeal to the "old school" or the niche guys that are most vocal online

PE is very much #2. Jack runs a very profitable company in what is a pretty small market space (paintball is niche like it or not). The autococker market is mainly #1 guys that are niche but very vocal about what they want and generally have larger budgets but at the same time buy in such small quantities that even at the higher price it will never be very profitable just due to the labor put into the guns. I don't see PE entering this space just because of that although I'm very happy to see the companies that I thought had gone out of business and would never come back starting to pop up and slide into the autococker space.

I don't think autococker market is oversaturated but I do think that there is a very limited growth potential for companies getting into it. PE is a big company and wants to stay that way so they will be primarily focused on the larger picture rather than getting into the weeds with autocockers.

*edit* BTW it's an almost universal truth that #2 companies buy #1 companies when they eventually go broke. It's not a matter of if but when generally. Just takes one big capital expenditure that pops up that overextends these small companies and necessitates a buy out which can only be paid for by a large well capitalized company. Sad truth.

[the_matrix_guy]

Working in the aviation industry I see a very similar situation to paintball companies all the time. There's two types:

1. A small company started by a passionate owner that jumped into a niche market with low margins and is scrapping it out to make a buck and just barely making it but the fanbase for that niche is super enthusiastic about their product and keeps them in business but just barely.

2. Large company started by a business person who understands margins and how to run a company with a healthy bottom line and only gets involved in products with mainstream appeal that are well engineered but may not appeal to the "old school" or the niche guys that are most vocal online

PE is very much #2. Jack runs a very profitable company in what is a pretty small market space (paintball is niche like it or not). The autococker market is mainly #1 guys that are niche but very vocal about what they want and generally have larger budgets but at the same time buy in such small quantities that even at the higher price it will never be very profitable just due to the labor put into the guns. I don't see PE entering this space just because of that although I'm very happy to see the companies that I thought had gone out of business and would never come back starting to pop up and slide into the autococker space.

I don't think autococker market is oversaturated but I do think that there is a very limited growth potential for companies getting into it. PE is a big company and wants to stay that way so they will be primarily focused on the larger picture rather than getting into the weeds with autocockers.

*edit* BTW it's an almost universal truth that #2 companies buy #1 companies when they eventually go broke. It's not a matter of if but when generally. Just takes one big capital expenditure that pops up that overextends these small companies and necessitates a buy out which can only be paid for by a large well capitalized company. Sad truth.

+1 I agree with everything you just said with a couple exceptions. And I always enjoy your perspective. I know we've had some interesting conversations on stock trading and PC hardware. The exceptions are: 1) Any company compared to PE looks small. Especially a smaller boutique shop like Shocktech. They are THAT successful. And the other is, 2) the margins for Shocktech. The margins for these Autocockers is high. They do everything in-house. They don't have a whole lot of overhead either, including personnel. They only have a handful of guys. Shoot, Danny Love tunes and smiths 99% of the Cockers himself. They are far from just "scraping by." And the mech market is growing & getting even stronger.

I don't know if you saw my PC gaming versus console gaming analogy. But it fits here, perfectly. In this analogy PC gaming is mech PB, whereas console gaming is the mainstream electro-pneumatic market. Console gaming is obviously much more mainstream and has the lion's share in market-share. And PE, you could, say, is the Microsoft of paintball, (although obviously Microsoft is a much larger company and they do much more than just consoles) Nevertheless, Microsoft's gaming ecosystem encompasses both console gaming and PC gaming. They are more focused on the more lucrative side of the business which is the mainstream console market and everything that is part of that console ecosystem: digital services, games, accessories, etc. That's where most of the money is and that's where their focus is. Now, at the same time, they also envision PC gaming as an additional revenue stream not to be taken lightly. Think Microsoft Flight SImulator on PC and the way they have promoted it as the superior platform. They understand both markets and they are capitalizing on both. Because even though PC gaming is a smaller and more niche market --it is still very lucrative and provides them with meaningful additional revenue streams. So to continue the analogy, PC gaming itself is niche by comparison as a whole. But companies that cater to this market make a killing regardless and are not going anywhere. And by comparison are much smaller companies when compared to MS. Shocktech can be compared to third party vendors of PC hardware. They are building a whole product based on an OEM reference mo. But unlike PC hardware third party vendors, do not have to pay licensing fees. They have free rein to produce the marker as their own -- and they do.

PE on the other hand is not only well-established in the mainstream console gaming market. But they are also well established in the mainstream PC ecosystem. Take the Emek for example. More and more fields are starting to carry Emeks as part of their rental services. And this is true for the global market. Lot of of fields in other countries are also starting to carry Emeks as part of their rental packages / services. So PE has tapped into both subset mainstream markets of an already smallish industry which is not so smallish once you tap into international markets as they're doing. Again, think of how Windows is in 95% of the world's computers. Nevertheless, Microsoft still caters to more niche subsets of PC gaming. They've always done so even when it wasn't obvious why they would. Most recently, with Microsoft Flight Simulator for the PC. Before that during the early 2000's it was MechWarrior 3 and their Force Feedback line of joysticks. Even back then, PC gaming was a much, much smaller market than console gaming, yet they endeavored to promote their PC gaming hardware which has a cult following today, still. And similarly, PC gaming in many ways is also returning to something that got lost along the way and which made it special in the first place. So the comparison is apt in more ways than one. And as I alluded their success doesn't mean that smaller companies i.e. third party PC hardware vendors, do not have a place in the market, and are not successful companies. Even though Planet Eclipse is king: There's cake for everyone.

Final thoughts: I do agree that the chances of PE endeavoring to cater to the Cocker community are slim to none. Especially given their success in both the electro-pneumatic mainstream markets and the mech mainstream markets. But never say never! There' still money to be made and additional revenue streams to tap into.

Microsoft's Force Feedback joystick line from the late 90's, early 2000's still has a cult following today: We're seeing some similarities with this year's much anticipated and critically acclaimed Microsoft Flight Simulator:

[latches109]

blasting punk music and playing MW was awesome!

your numbers are off, the last few surveys in 2020 showed ~ 200M gamers in the USA, were "52% of active gamers play on PC, compared with 90% on mobile and 41% on console. A majority – 59% – play on both mobile and console or PC. 34% of those surveyed play exclusively on mobile."

PC is the mainstream now. Plus once you play on a well built PC you will never want to use a console again.

[the_matrix_guy]

It makes me feel all warm n fuzzy to see so many MW fans.

I'm sorry latches109, but actually, the numbers -- and I do agree that PC gaming is much more mainstream today and it is the superior platform -- but the numbers are as follows as per 2019: Consoles account for 30% of the 2019 global gaming market at $45.3 billion. PCs fall slightly behind with 24% market share or $35.3 billion. Now, the reason that they are so close is because we're at the end of a console cycle. Console related revenues always decrease exponentially during the last 1-3 years of a cycle. In the next three to four years you will see consoles obliterate PC gaming again in terms of revenues. Especially with this generation's focus on digital services / digital ecosystems. Look it up

[latches109]

Shhh it’s my “workstation” - I did not buy a gaming PC. Anyway, I’m looking at % of active players not sales.

[russc]

BTW it's an almost universal truth that #2 companies buy #1 companies when they eventually go broke. It's not a matter of if but when generally. Just takes one big capital expenditure that pops up that overextends these small companies and necessitates a buy out which can only be paid for by a large well capitalized company. Sad truth.

In the case of paintball, there is no intellectual property worth salvaging from the small guys. It's all old hat.

[gabe]

Not the IP but the name. Shocktech, Freeflow, CCM, and others have a name and body designs that resonate with players and can and will probably be bought up by other companies for "reissue" guns later down the road.