Some more Cocker goodness from Badlandz Fight Club Mech Event Series:
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Did you guys notice that RF with the Spire. The Spire look a bit out of place -- but still, it takes me back. My first Cocker ever was a '98 RF. I loved it to death. -
Completely agree. I use my Spire on pretty much everything, including my stainless center feed mag. But on my right feed cocker, it looks so strange. I use my Revvy on that one every time.
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Dang I still kind of want a predator 'cocker. I wish they would do the same anno that's on the Predator M170r'sComment
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I love cockers. I mean I make parts for them including making my own entire lower tubes and R/T kits. Jack loves them too. All that said, I don't see it happening for the time being.
I've spoken with him in-person with Simon at Fulda, and he REALLY didn't seem like he wanted any part of them again. He flat out said it there. I'd never say never, but I don't think it'll ever happen for a litany of reasons.
It takes away from other guns being produced. They're having a hard time keeping up with current production as-is for literally all of their lines right now. The emek sales are outpacing production. The GEO4s have outsold their production, and they're playing catch up there, and the LV 1.6s are waaaaaay behind. They're not going to take away from their most profitable lines to produce something that is a lot more labor-intensive and has a much smaller audience while they are behind in their current main offerings. The margins definitely aren't there to do anything like that.
And he sure didn't seem to miss the headaches inherit in cocker production that simply don't exist with their current lines, or the warranty issues that come from idiots screwing their markers up are just a lot harder to do with their other lines. It's a whole lot harder to mess up an emek than it is to screw up a cocker's operation.
And as others have mentioned, the cocker market is flooded right now. I know Boston Paintball has no interest in doing any more for the forseeable future, at least with Twisters, in no small part because of this. There are just a lot of small shops putting out a ton of small runs, and that adds up. There's also not the same margin in making a cocker versus almost any other marker. It's a labor intensive, takes a lot of machine time, and just involves a lot more parts. I mean my r/t kits for me have 37 separate possible points of failure for just leaks. Compare that to an emek.
Again, I love cockers, and they're all I shoot, and have shot, for years. I make almost the entire firing systems for my own. But man, there are a whole lot more downsides than upsides for PE to doing them when compared to their own current markers. From a business perspective, it really makes no sense for them.Comment
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Well put. And it does beg the question as to why a guy like Wood would even endeavor to make ANY paintball guns. Period. The market is so small. And needless to say, he's a talented engineer and savvy businessman. He could've entered the aerospace industry, the weapons industry, etc, etc. Far more lucrative. I do wonder about that but I guess PB is his passion -- and we should be thankful for that. I guess we should also be thankful that Shocktech and other companies are committed to the Autococker platform the way they are. In terms of margins, I agree that Autocockers are more labour intensive, and more expensive to produce, but the margins for these boutique guns is high. You gotta remember, they start at $1400, and everything's done in-house. Manufacturing efficiencies are also high, given their decades long experience and high-end tooling. And in the case of Shocktech, Inception, etc -- they're not only selling markers but they're also selling parts, and they're high margin as well. Do you really think that PE would not make tons of money selling Belsales parts? Let's face it. No matter which way you look at it: it's a lost revenue stream for them. Successful, industry-leading companies in other sectors are well-known for harnessing a multitude of revenue streams. -
the_matrix_guy it isn’t a “lost revenue stream” if it takes away from their current revenue stream. I think you need to do some research into operations management because nothing you’re talking about is as simple as you make it seem. I’d recommend starting with the book “The Goal” and then coming back to post.
Edit: I believe you’re falling victim to this right now:
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It's not though. The machine set up and in-machine time is drastically higher for a cocker than their other markers, and the margins on a $1400 cocker are not nearly as high as you'd think because of the sheer number of types of parts and labor involved. The reason that they cost as much as they do is because they cost a lot to actually produce. They may save in R&D cost with the years of experience, but that doesn't cut down on parts needed to make one run. It's not a good business decision for them to go that route when they can crank out relatively simple parts that can cross platforms with the Gamma Core or with the LV, which is actually a pretty simple gun as well. They don't need to have reset the machines to run anywhere near the number of parts that are on a cocker. It's a hell of a lot less efficient, and makes them less. They don't have unlimited access to machine shops, and they have to go with what's going to make them the most. And for them, it's not cocker.
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the_matrix_guy commented
Today, 03:52 PM
Well put. And it does beg the question as to why a guy like Wood would even endeavor to make ANY paintball guns. Period. The market is so small. And needless to say, he's a talented engineer and savvy businessman. He could've entered the aerospace industry, the weapons industry, etc, etc. Far more lucrative. I do wonder about that but I guess PB is his passion -- and we should be thankful for that. I guess we should also be thankful that Shocktech and other companies are committed to the Autococker platform the way they are. In terms of margins, I agree that Autocockers are more labour intensive, and more expensive to produce, but the margins for these boutique guns is high. You gotta remember, they start at $1400, and everything's done in-house. Manufacturing efficiencies are also high, given their decades long experience and high-end tooling. And in the case of Shocktech, Inception, etc -- they're not only selling markers but they're also selling parts, and they're high margin as well. Do you really think that PE would not make tons of money selling Belsales parts? Let's face it. No matter which way you look at it: it's a lost revenue stream for them. Successful, industry-leading companies in other sectors are well-known for harnessing a multitude of revenue streams.Comment
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I will ask Danny Love for permission to post some of the bullish industry insights that he has given me regarding their margins. But he'd prefer if Jack Wood kept doing what he was doing, obviously. In terms of manufacturing, we shouldnt look at it as resetting machines or replacing assembly lines with a different product. We're talking about expansion and upgrading manufacturing capabilities. Look at eMagin as an example, they are the industry leading microdisplay company, they just developed an IP that's not only brighter than the competition, but also it's more efficient. They have dozens of defense contracts including everything from the ENVG-B night vision goggles to HUD's for the military aerospace industry including the F-35, Apache attack helos, etc. Moreover, they scored multiple tier-one consumer AR/VR contracts which are poised to bring in the lion's share of revenues. They are looking at all of these revenue streams and they're looking for ways to capitalize on all of them in various ways, including licensing agreements and manufacturing partnerships. That being said, the Department of Defense just gave the company over $39M in grants to re-tool and upgrade their manufacturing capacity. It's all about expanding. With the tier one contracts in consumer AR/VR, you're talking about million of microdisplays per month. It's far more lucrative. And in the meantime, they do not have the manufacturing capacity to meet that kind of demand, thus they are looking to satisfy the consumer end via licensing agreements, but regardless the government validated their technology and they are upgrading their manufacturing capacity to satisfy the defense side of things. This is how companies grow. It was never about re-setting tools or replacing products from their existing lines. It's about having a separate in-house shop to meet this demand, even if it's niche by comparison to their main business mo. As I alluded earlier, when we look at industry leading companies in various sectors - one thing they all have in common, is their ability to recognize a multitude of revenue streams, big and small, and to capitalize on em.Originally posted by cfos00 View PostComment
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Don't assume that expanding is always a good thing. Over expansion with the assumption that you're just going to make more and more money has killed off some of the biggest companies in paintball when the creditors decided that they wanted their money back. If they are forced to add machines, that's not a good thing. What happens if/when the cocker bubble bursts? They're stuck paying for machines that no longer are paying for themselves, and have just overextended themselves. It's adding risk and cost. And for what? Possibly a small bump that is also competing directly with your other product lines? Sustainability matters a lot, and why introduce risk to get into a crowded field with low reward? It's the same reason that they don't get into masks or really get into loader design. Came up in the talk with Jack and Simon too. Brutal competition and low reward.Originally posted by the_matrix_guy View Post
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All sound, valid points. And very well put, again. And you're right that there is a potential for PE to cannibalize their own mech product lines. That being said, Shocktech is making good money. And something is happening in the industry -- and this goes back to what I was saying earlier ( a few pages back) about industry insiders having a better read on the market and a finger on the pulse of the consumer -- but something important is happening in terms of players longing to go back to something that got lost along the way and made the sport/hobby special in the first place. I don't think Autocockers are a bubble, to be frank. I don't think they're going anywhere. But I guess, we'll see. Another good market index, is the second-hand grey market and how the highly sought after custom Cockers are going for top-dollar and you just don't see a lot of them in the open market. People are buying Autocockers man. Also, as I said before, I'm happy giving my money to Shocktech. They make one hell of a Cocker.Originally posted by cfos00 View PostComment
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The only other "industry leader" in paintball besides PE just filed bankruptcy after losing more than 30 million a year, for multiple years. If PE's books are in the black, then they should just keep doing what they're doing.Originally posted by the_matrix_guy View Post
Major firearms companies aren't out making $300 sling shots because it's a possible niche venue stream.
Equating any bloated ass company that's receiving DOD contracts to any company that is currently just in paintball is so far off base it's beyond cringe worthy.
Give up the Ghost man. For any company that actually has overhead the stacked-tube sheridan with delicate bits bolted to the front, 2 separate regulators and 43 moving parts is a complete and utter loss.Comment
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The comparison is not off base. We're talking about industry leaders. eMagin is not a "bloated ass company" they are a small cap. The example is simply to illustrate how successful companies capitalize on multiple revenue streams, big and small. And yes, people want to shoot their "stacked-tube sheridan with delicate bits bolted to the front, 2 separate regulators and 43 moving parts" I guess that's what makes them special. Think about the kind of overhead Shocktech requires to make do. It's not much. Again, you're making it sound way over complicated. The bottom line is: that PE is happy catering to the mainstream market and they're the most successful PB company today. They are the industry leader. They can afford to just say no to a niche market. That doesn't change that it is a lost revenue stream. But I guess we'll agree to disagree on this. Nevertheless, people are gobbling up their over-engineered Sheridans in primary and secondary markets.Originally posted by Mr. Hick View PostComment
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I wasn't very clear. I was saying that a company that actually has considerable overhead. That's not Shocktech. Shocktech isn't doing $40M in business a quarter. I'm willing to bet that PE is paying more for the English version of Workmans Comp than Shocktech is making in revenue quarterly, weekly, by the moment. That's overhead. -
Mr. Hick I understand what you meant. I alluded to this earlier: PE dwarfs ANY paintball company by comparison, especially a small boutique shop like BBT/Shocktech. But a large company like PE would be able to make even more profit than them given their manufacturing efficiencies and capabilities. But as we have said before, they are focused on the mainstream markets and are highly successful in multiple market subsets and segments so they have choices.
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What do you guys think the economics were for the Empire Resurrection? They had a few successful years/runs before they lost market share to the likes of Inception, FF, Shocktech, CCM, etc. But they were able to pump out their Resurrection for around $500, which is impressive this day and age with current production costs and with the associated cost of producing Autocockers. Albeit, it is a bit of apples and oranges when we compare them to boutique shops and/or a high-end line of Cockers like the PE & Belsales were -- just different market segments, but it is still interesting that they had a few successful years of mass production and were able to sell em so cheaply. BTW did Empire discontinue them? I see they are "sold out" on the official Empire site. But some sites like Action Village and Amazon have them on sale for around $400.Comment
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The ressy was probably one of the best runs at updating the autococker to make it easier to fit, tune, and keep working. I just want to know what the warranty department at Empire went through trying to keep ham fisted owners from breaking those guns accidentally. I bet they lost a good chunk of cash just in the back end support.
Now, if someone could make a Trilogy type gun that would really be something. BUT with the Emek I think that low end mech market has sailed.Comment
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I've said it for years (mostly just to myself) that a midblock, hoseless trilogy would be the single best autococker ever made.Originally posted by gabe View PostComment
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If Empire woudl do that it would be amazing. Basically the empire resurrection but with an Axe hoseless grip frame reg and some clever routing or an AT pipe sort of deal. No adjustable 3 way, just make a clever pneumatic switch in the grip frame that runs the recocking. Reasonably priced? Probably not. But it would be cool.Originally posted by Magmoormaster View Post
Like I said, the EMEK killed off that market and hard. Hard to compete with a flawless $200 gun that will never need messing with.Comment
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If anybody went and made an updated Trilogy, you know what the first thing every consumer would do is, right? They'd all go buy a new adjustable 3-way shaft like they did with the ACTUAL Trilogy, so it'll be like a "real cocker".Comment
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