Gas-through Phantom interest?

[Chuck E Ducky]

Actually maybe you would have the room looking at the RTR frame again. That’s an expensive frame to trial and error on tho. The two piece RTR design may also give you trouble tho depends on how you plan on taping into the valve.

for the CCI frame, I always wanted to try and drill an internal hole threw the grip frame recess a a small fat oring in the top. Then tap the valve body with an Autococker 3way barb that would sandwich the oring between the valve body and trigger frame. It would hide everything without hogging out the frame all that much probably be pretty reliable if done right. It’s not like that back frame screw loosens up ever. The 3way barb would flow just fine for a pump so I don’t see recharge rate issues (it’s not like the Phantom is a fast shooter even open class). On the bottom I would tap it for a straight hardline down to the ASA setup. This way you could get rid of fittings and macro completely that rob reliably from the Phantom.

For me it would have to be completely hidden and not use any macro or macro fittings that are always prone to leaking. Essentially I want a true Gas threw grip that won’t effect reliability. Hard line or Bust! IMO

[flyweightnate]

Yeah, that's a decent plan with the barb and o-ring, but the way the frame is built, there are too many joint to make it reliable. I couldn't find a good route through the grip block into the trigger frame with an airtight seal.
I don't understand why people use Macro on a Phantom. Each time you double the diameter, you have one quarter the pressure capacity. Microline makes more sense (and compression or flared hardline, even better - but they're bulky).

Regarding the RTR frame, the material that gets removed is just in front of those shiny flat head screws. Not sure how many moving parts are inside.

[flyweightnate]

I do agile project management, so I test in individually viable phases... this is phase 1. Hand tools only, and some careful jig building.

[Cunha]

That 3D printed gas thru frame floating around here and elsewhere is a pretty good example.

the answer is yes we want one and it’s what the new owners of phantom should be doing.

Probably with a special valve body and a banjo field strip screw and an all new frame.

[Mechstar]

So, as an owner for a gas th grip Phantom, hopefully I can add something to the discussion/design. I have been waiting until I had enough time to properly contribute…but if I wait until I came do a complete “mind vomit”, Nate will be on version 5 already! So I will add to this post as I add ideas, pictures, links, etc.

Ok, so gas through grip (and gas IN grip) has been a mini obsession of mine for a couple of years.
About six months ago I was able to buy a very well done Phantom from someone on FB. Some pictures of how he does the mod are here:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AiObFv7jMo4HhMU_MKoQRyY5mu6bSQ

Mine is the gunmetal grey one.
Anyway, this is the most common way I have seen the mod done. Fairly easy and straightforward. Nate, I think you have already past this step, but if you need any dimensions just let me know.
Downsides to this micro line gas through design is having to remove one grip panel to access the microline fitting to release the tube to remove the valve. Seems like a small thing, but is not ideal.
Others that have done the mod have moved the placement of the valve micro fitting rearward just a bit so the hole in the trigger frame/grip breaks through the back and exposes the fitting so a fingernail or other flat object can depress the fitting insert to release the micro tube. Here are some of the Super Stanchy SSC gas through Phantoms showing an exposed fitting:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AiObFv7jMo4HhMU9_bzs1Yo7kLgofQ

If I were to do this mod again with a standard 45 grip, I would do it this way.
Others have used the same fittings, but replaced the plastic micro line with a hardline. This also eliminates the need to “release” the tube from the fittings.
Others have “threaded” the OD of the hardline and locktighted it directly into the valve instead of using a fitting.
Here are some examples of other peoples gas through mods I have collected:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AiObFv7jMo4HhMU-ErwcZab08CArbg

The biggest drawback of all mods that partially or completely hide the connection to the valve body in n the grip frame is that the gas inlet is directly below the cup seal (actually in FRONT of the cup seal.

You can see the shoulder of the retaining nut through the drilled hole for the micro fitting).
I don’t have testing to prove it, but I feel that it makes my gas through Phantom more inconsistent in shot to shot velocity than my “normal” Phantoms. I have been thinking of ways to deflect or otherwise direct the burst of recharge gas rearward, but I have not come up with a good solution.
The “IDEAL” gas through Phantom would have the transfer from trigger frame to valve body much farther back in my opinion.
I envision a transfer hole running horizontally back PAST the rear frame screw, then transferring to the valve with and oring seal or better still a short transfer tube like on a Tippman TiPX from the reg to the valve.
This would be a much bigger endeavor of course, and probably only practical with a completely newly milled frame/grip design. If someone really wants to pursue a true new gas through (or gas in) frame solution for a Phantom. I have some development dollars to throw your way.

I was working a bit with PumpSendacate Aaron on SLS printed gas through frames. Here is one design he created to neatly guide a macro line back to an external CCM fitting at a 45 degree tilt down. Pretty cool how he uses a Palmers female Stabilizer as a bottomline ASA:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AiObFv7jMo4HhMU8pQlNyV3b_nViLA

More thoughts to come….



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[Mechstar]

Reserved for a gas IN grip (12 gram) mind vomit.
in the meantime, enjoy some photos of Phantom (and other) in grip designs to spur some creativity. We really NEED a 12 gram in grip Phantom option!
EDIT: If anyone has a Dukie DSP frame available...message me please. thanks

[Chuck E Ducky]

Hell yeah I can post photos of how Carter did the Duck I got if you would like.it’s actually pretty simple.

[Mechstar]

C E D, that would be great! I would love for someone to provide some good photos of the frame to valve air transfer for the DSP and the Retro 7 (and any other gas in/through Nelsons that are out there to see if we can consolidate the good features into a new design.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Definitely, I got to replace my piercing pin anyway so I will snap some pictures when I pull it apart. The grip frame is a bit thicker to house the 12 g in grip I can take measurements to. DSP puts it in the back strap, Carter’s is built right into the middle of the frame. They seem to tap into the valve similar.

[flyweightnate]

Hm, interesting that you prefer the notch to release the fitting from outside. I hate the aesthetic of it, and did mine specifically to be inside-only. I don't plan on releasing the fitting often, but I suppose if you want to pull the valve instead of pulling the front half it makes sense. Thanks for chiming in! I love hearing a voice that's different than mine, giving me more angles to consider.

I absolutely have a design that checks all those weird boxes - hardlines, in frame only, doesn't impinge on the cup seal - but it requires a scratch built frame, so it's a $250 kit. I didn't think it would be that popular at that price. But if you're talking about throwing money around, I have some design chops and files of just about everything (mostly halfway done), and we can see how close we can get to "go".

I also had an idea for an in-frame lever changer, but it's a similar issue - it becomes pricey, and if you want your cup seal away from your gas port, that becomes an issue, too.

[XEMON]

I also had an idea for an in-frame lever changer, but it's a similar issue - it becomes pricey, and if you want your cup seal away from your gas port, that becomes an issue, too.

Ok, you got my interest peeked ... let us know if you ever move forward with this.

[flyweightnate]

It's in the "super expensive, super awesome" quadrant... I like to move from "very cheap, mostly awesome" in that general direction, while avoiding the "super expensive, mostly crap" corner. It's a very refined system.

[flyweightnate]

Mechstar got me back to the drawing board, looking for a way to differentiate from what's already been done.

It's around $65 more, per gun, but I found a way to build it out so:
A: All the fittings can be compression-type, like Casady Himself intended,
B: The valve can be removed simply by removing the thumbscrew, exactly like an unmodified Phantom,
C: Metal line can be used inside the frame to connect the Emek ASA to the other end of the distribution block.

Unfortunately, there's a pricey little widget that is required to make this work, and it's even more pricey at low volumes. If there's a machinist (lathe) who wants in, hit me up; otherwise I need a good head count on who thinks this is worth ~$200 to make sure I'm not sitting on 40 unsold widgets.

[JeepDVLZ45]

I’m still in if it can wait until AFTER the holidays.


Good news, you’re down to 39 widgets!

[flyweightnate]

Yeah, no way it'll be done before the holidays! Probably 6 weeks after I hit "go".

[Chuck E Ducky]

I’m in for one 100% sounds like exactly what I’m looking for.

[Jonnydread]

Sensibilities be dammed I’m still in

[Mechstar]

You KNOW I am still in!
I’m riding this one to the end. Time to put my money (or parts) where my mouth is…what do you need? A raw trigger frame to cut up?

[flyweightnate]

Right now, I think I need a preorder approval from a mod, or a couple months to save up, (or an angel donor...) to move forward.

I contract out my CNC machining, and the first part is always the most expensive. To have a chance at break-even at MCB quantities, I need my first run to be a production run, but that's a couple grand. My wife would rather I not touch the 401k for paintball.

Plus side is, cost drops with quantity. So anyone who wants ...oh, 10! will reduce the cost per mod by around $15 per person.

The mod will require a Phantom frame with .45 block and an Emek ASA, with a veeeery light touch on the valve body that could be done at home, plus three parts from my machine shop and a handful of fasteners and fittings and some stainless tubing. It looks more simple every day. I'm getting excited.

[flyweightnate]

A little too much flex for my liking (albeit in nylon), which is exactly why I ran a rapid prototype on this one... figured out the solution today, I think, by changing the structure of the lower joint. I think it's dumb to run 77s and bigger on a pump, but I want to ensure it's appropriately beefy, if you want to.

The project continues! (It's nice to have my own lathe for this stage...)

[Lookingforpump]

Is this still under consideration? I'd be happy to supply the parts to get a kit complete if i don't get to handing em over to a local machinist first

[flyweightnate]

I'm intrigued... I'm waiting for warmer weather to cut a new fitting after the first one needed a little something extra.