Velocity issues

[The Jayster]

I started noticing wildly fluctuating velocity with my Phantom in the 240-290 range (average being maybe 270) then I realized that the TPC was moving around. FYI, I have a Phantom that was produced in 2022. At first I tried tightening the nylon set screw, but the issue persisted. So I put blue Loctite on the nylon screw and on the TPC threads. I dry fired a lot and now the TPC does not move at all, but I'm still able to adjust it (as it should be).

For the record, I use field paint that's decent (not great but what can you do in 2023?), I don't think the chrony I used was the issue (no such fluctuations with the same paint and other markers), I've got a Phreak barrel (so I'm using inserts and thus matching the bore to the paint), I run a red spring and the tank used is a Tippmann-brand 13ci that's brand new, so the standard output *should* be at 800 psi.

AFTER I pulled that maneuver, I found out two things: 1-You don't just back out the nylon set screw and screw it back unto the TPC; you let the nylon screw stick out a bit so that the TPC screws a little into it. And 2 (more to the point) you apparently don't even need the nylon set screw on the newer TPCs as they now have an o-ring smack in the middle to prevent the TPC from moving around (and mine has that). However, that o-ring clearly did not perform its job at all, as I solved the issue of the TPC moving around only when I put Loctite on the the threads.

I took my Phantom to the field yesterday with some paint and the velocity was consistent (well as consistent as it will be with field paint) and the TPC was still remaining in place. NOW, the issue I have is that velocity seems a bit on the high side (290-300) no matter what I do to the TPC. When it was fairly screwed in (maybe 3-4 turns in?), velocity was at about 295-305 but it was very consistent (again, with the paint I had to work with). Then I progressively backed out the TPC (a quarter turn then half a turn by attempt), chronoed and the velocity was going down a bit on average (by maybe 5 fps) but the velocity became increasingly more inconsistent the more I was backing out the TPC. Then I realized that it was fully backed out and it was still averaging at maybe 290.

I cannot explain what's going on and how I should go about fixing this. Ideally, I'd like something set at 285 fps (+/-10 fps would be acceptable). I've got some parts on order that should be coming in within 1-2 weeks (they're held at customs) so I was thinking of removing the Loctite, change the TPC o-ring (either with a stock one or maybe a slightly larger one?) and see what happens? That, or changing back to a stock spring (silver)? Yet, what I can't explain is that before putting Loctite I never got anything above 290fps and now I can hardly get anything below that even with the TPC backed out. Sorry for the long post but you guys might have any pointers?

[Chuck E Ducky]

Stock Silver springs 2 turns in from flush should put you in the 280fps range on a clean lightly oiled Phantom. Providing input pressure HPA is 800-825psi or CO2/12g

Things to check is that the bolt tip Oring is intact doing its job sealing properly on the barrel you are using, and that your body and valve are tight to each other. Also if your cup seal backs off the power tube it will cause erratic velocity.

If you are using say a First Strike tank reg at say 450psi you will need to use the red main spring to get velocity and switch to silver for 12g/co2 play.

I run silver springs and just keep my HPA reg input pressure at 800psi ish. So I can swap between HPA and 12g without changing springs. @ 825psi input I can swap with a 5fps difference between the the two air source. So it’s a tooless swap.

[Db1060]

phantom guru

[The Jayster]

Thanks Chuck;

There's a silver spring in the parts kit I've ordered so I'll try that and see how it goes. I'll also check the bolt tip o-ring and inspect the cup seal.

[The Jayster]

Well, I conducted some further tests yesterday and the problem seemed to be solved. The odd thing is, I did not do anything to the gun. I did use a different chrono, and while I used the exact same paintball brand, it was a different box. Logically that should explain the difference. I was shooting at an average of 285fps, with some very rare outliers not exceeding 275 and 295. I experienced the same spread with other markers.

The good news is that the TPC is not moving at all while I'm shooting. That Loctite's doing its job! The only little snag I hit was that using the adjustment rod is now unwieldy because a greater amount of force must be used to turn the TPC. However, when I remove the barrel and use a flathead screwdriver I can easily adjust the TPC. I'm still using the red hammer spring (my parts kit is on order) and the TPC is at about one to one and a half turn down from the flush position.

[Grendel]

Instead of using loctite on the TPC I have used a little RTV on the threads [i.e., one small blob in the middle of the TPC's thread area], it takes up some of the slop preventing it from drifting while being used but still allows the TPC to be adjusted easily. It sort of makes a little snot ball between the threads to keep some pressure on the threads preventing movement during shooting. There is a product called Vibra-tite that does a similar thing (what it is made for to be exact) but it is a little more firm.

[superman]

you could also use vc3. The real solution is using a nylon locking screw.

[Chuck E Ducky]

^This^ to do this you remove the TPC. Tighten the Teflon grub screw so that it just barely enters the threaded bore of the bolt, then screw the TPC into it. If you just crank down on the Teflon it will strip out. The newer TPC that they sell also have Orings installed on them so you don’t need to do this but the Teflon grub screw works great.

[The Jayster]

Yep. But the weird thing with mine was that the o-ring did not perform its intended function at all.

[Chuck E Ducky]

That’s unusual, you try replacing it. I think it a lil thicker then a standard black buna. The new bolts don’t even have the set screw anymore.

It’s a 011 Buna N70

[The Jayster]

011 Buna N70; good to know, thanks. If the loctite ever wears off I was thinking of installing a slightly larger o-ring. Jesse from EV warned me however that larger o-rings may get shredded by the treads.

But for the time being my Phantom is consistent at a good velocity (280ish) and the TPC's staying put. It works, I'll leave it alone.

[Chuck E Ducky]

In that case

[The Jayster]

Damn it, now I'm hungry.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Every time I think of that phrase I think of the delicious rotisserie chicken my grandma use to make lol

[The Jayster]

Way OT here but I liked the infomercial about the pasta maker. Every time I stayed up late channel surfing and I'd chance upon that I'd watch it. You could tell Ron was getting impatient with the co-host, Nancy. That was cringe AF.

And the older dude going 'cajun linguini'... ha Terry Scott from Kewanee IL, we shan't forget you!

That was what? 1991? Picture this: George Bush senior is president, Star Trek: The Next Generation is hitting its stride, Tippmann's about to release the Pro-AM, AGD just released the Automag and Mike at CCI is making the Phantom. Good times. Well except for Saddam being a jerk.

[The Jayster]

Finally got a full day worth of play and yet again the TPC did not move at all. Steady 285 fps on average with a narrow spread; perfect.

Last week while I did not play with my Phantom, I conducted a test and switched the main (red) spring for the silver one, with the intent on turning the TPC inwards. I did not touch the TPC after all as the velocity was widely fluctuating. Then I surmised that it was because a brand new spring needs to be broken in before settling in nicely. I had limited time so I had to end the experiment there but I'll retry it at one point.

[The Jayster]

Well...
Yesterday I was hitting 300fps (+/- 5). Switched to a sliver spring and with the TPC back out all the way the best I could manage was 290fps (YES the silver spring needs to be broken in...) Switched to a blue spring with TPC at about two turns in and it was spot-on to a consistent 285fps.

How many shots do you need to go through to break in the spring? A case of paintballs or so?
Like Chuck said I'm thinking that a broken-in silver spring with the TPC at two turns in will yield a consistent 285fps.

[Chuck E Ducky]

So I set all my markers to 280fps regardless of field speed. This gives me a few more shots to a 12g and keeps all my markers trajectory the same. I’m pretty good at placing shots at range I think keeping the most thing consistent helps with this. The rest is due to paint quality / the one behind the trigger.

I haven’t found that springs need to be broken in only that they lose some velocity over time (I’m talking like decades of service). I’m surprised you are getting low velocity erratic numbers with the silver springs. Thoes are my go to when all else fails. You got these straight form Phantom online? I hope they didn’t switch the new springs up that would really make stuff difficult to tec. Is your phantom a new build like since Mike left. There have been some QC issues with power tubes on the new ones. Seems they have it figured out now. But there was a bad batch floating around. I haven’t gotten one yet to compare and figure out what went wrong with them. But something to keep in mind.

I need to start asking what frame people are using now because the 2.0 w/ internal gas lines need a heavier spring to get velocity. (Reds) especially if you remove volume like I did by plugging the frame to use non CCI style grips with it.

Things like short barrels play a part, as well. Micro phantoms may need a lil more spring to get velocity. Extreme elevation and conditions could also play apart.

However for the majority Stock Silvers are the sweet spot for efficiency, performance for both HPA (800-825psi), and 12g/Co2. As long as you’re not running the (lower volume 2.0 frame) I’m curious if the 2.0 frame was drilled out a lil more if you could drop the spring pressure back down. I think it’s bumping it just outside that premium pressure window making it a lil less efficient. Or maybe some custom springs in the middle between reds and silvers is the answer.

Honesty tho it’s splitting hairs for the sake of premium performance. So many other factors come into play. Paint quality of the 12g, oils used and how much. Barrel length, paint quality, consistency, bore match, temperature, inner body smoothness (I think this is why older phantom’s shoot better) jeweled internals vs low friction factory coating, valve type, changer design, breach oring to barrel seal (you can actually adjust some pump arms out of range and it will not seal on the barrel properly) that’s not even getting into the aftermarket stuff like machined hammers and open face TPC mods, Detent systems and such.

Phantoms are super simple but there are so many options for them that it make it hard to pin point what is really going on without physically putting your hands on it and seeing what’s going on.

[SignOfZeta]

…breaking in a spring?

[The Jayster]

So I set all my markers to 280fps regardless of field speed. This gives me a few more shots to a 12g and keeps all my markers trajectory the same. I’m pretty good at placing shots at range I think keeping the most thing consistent helps with this. The rest is due to paint quality / the one behind the trigger.

I haven’t found that springs need to be broken in only that they lose some velocity over time (I’m talking like decades of service). I’m surprised you are getting low velocity erratic numbers with the silver springs. Thoes are my go to when all else fails. You got these straight form Phantom online? I hope they didn’t switch the new springs up that would really make stuff difficult to tec. Is your phantom a new build like since Mike left. There have been some QC issues with power tubes on the new ones. Seems they have it figured out now. But there was a bad batch floating around. I haven’t gotten one yet to compare and figure out what went wrong with them. But something to keep in mind.

I need to start asking what frame people are using now because the 2.0 w/ internal gas lines need a heavier spring to get velocity. (Reds) especially if you remove volume like I did by plugging the frame to use non CCI style grips with it.

Things like short barrels play a part, as well. Micro phantoms may need a lil more spring to get velocity. Extreme elevation and conditions could also play apart.

However for the majority Stock Silvers are the sweet spot for efficiency, performance for both HPA (800-825psi), and 12g/Co2. As long as you’re not running the (lower volume 2.0 frame) I’m curious if the 2.0 frame was drilled out a lil more if you could drop the spring pressure back down. I think it’s bumping it just outside that premium pressure window making it a lil less efficient. Or maybe some custom springs in the middle between reds and silvers is the answer.

Honesty tho it’s splitting hairs for the sake of premium performance. So many other factors come into play. Paint quality of the 12g, oils used and how much. Barrel length, paint quality, consistency, bore match, temperature, inner body smoothness (I think this is why older phantom’s shoot better) jeweled internals vs low friction factory coating, valve type, changer design, breach oring to barrel seal (you can actually adjust some pump arms out of range and it will not seal on the barrel properly) that’s not even getting into the aftermarket stuff like machined hammers and open face TPC mods, Detent systems and such.

Phantoms are super simple but there are so many options for them that it make it hard to pin point what is really going on without physically putting your hands on it and seeing what’s going on.

Thanks for the info;
Me too, I want my Phantom to average at 280fps. As a matter of fact, even if there were no velocity limits I would still aim for a 285fps average with my regular guns, 280 for the Phantom and 275 for any blowback.

To answer your questions:

- My Phantom is a brand new build from EV (2022);
- Got the spring kit from Phantom Online/EV a few months ago;
- I have the 2.0 frame but WITHOUT the internal fittings - I use the 'old school' external metal line connecting the valve to the VASA;
- My barrel is an 11" Phreak.

Right now regardless of how weird my set-up is (blue spring, TPC two turns in) the thing works: I've got a very consistent 285fps and my TPC ain't moving around when firing. If during my next outing the velocity is low, I'll just turn the TPC in another full turn. If it is REALLY low, I'll just switch to the silver spring (now it takes me about 5 min or less to do so) and back out the TPC. I think I've got this!