Phantom 2.0 frame velocity issues

[plunderin]

I picked up 2.0 frame #8 at Super Game Oregon 2023 and have not been able to chrono above 240 fps after installing it on my Phantom. It is currently set up for vertical air, red main spring, silver valve spring, pre EV internals, 9/3k tank with a Ninja V3 SHP set to 900 psi output, ASP Round Head with a Freak XL barrel.

Before I installed the 2.0 frame I was running it with a vertical air set up with a macro lined sized hard line, silver main spring and 750 psi output, everything else the same, and had consistent 290-295 fps with nice paint.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[JeepDVLZ45]

Chuck E Ducky May be able to help you…..

noticing a trend with these…

[Chuck E Ducky]

Red springs will get you more velocity. But I’m going back to CCI. I’m done with EV. It really pisses me off because they were handed a perfectly functioning marker and they can’t seem to get there stuff together.

I plan on shooting them an email see if I can trade it back for other product or something. I could try making the ports larger but I’m not doing that on my dime. It needs more volume / Flow and or the inside valve dimensions are off. Whatever it is the product wasn’t tested properly. If EV don’t do anything about it. It will be the late EV product I buy and it will go on EBay with a full disclosure. I won’t sell it to another member.

It probably will work on HPA if you bump up the input pressure a ton. I haven’t tried it’s SC season.

But I took a CCI Phantom that got 48 shots to a 12g @280fps at +65* and performed flawlessly for centuries I could take a HPA bottle at 815psi input pressure screw it on and be within 10FPS without touching a thing on the same marker I just ran CO2 on with the stock silver springs. I’m going back to that.

The new 2.0 frame is finicky and chokes at very low temperatures like 70* and requires heavy red springs to get velocity and gets bad efficiency. I thought I had it figured out but it’s so unreliable with the 2.0 mod. It’s so inconsistent and I don’t get why. It’s the first year I didn’t shoot it at Slims. My Gargoyle shot flawlessly tho so no complaints there. But the EV2.0 body ruined my go to bullet proof marker.

I’m going back to CCI.

[plunderin]

Red springs will get you more velocity. But I’m going back to CCI. I’m done with EV. It really pisses me off because they were handed a perfectly functioning marker and they can’t seem to get there stuff together.

I plan on shooting them an email see if I can trade it back for other product or something. I could try making the ports larger but I’m not doing that on my dime. It needs more volume / Flow and or the inside valve dimensions are off. Whatever it is the product wasn’t tested properly. If EV don’t do anything about it. It will be the late EV product I buy and it will go on EBay with a full disclosure. I won’t sell it to another member.

It probably will work on HPA if you bump up the input pressure a ton. I haven’t tried it’s SC season.

But I took a CCI Phantom that got 48 shots to a 12g @280fps at +65* and performed flawlessly for centuries I could take a HPA bottle at 815psi input pressure screw it on and be within 10FPS without touching a thing on the same marker I just ran CO2 on with the stock silver springs. I’m going back to that.

The new 2.0 frame is finicky and chokes at very low temperatures like 70* and requires heavy red springs to get velocity and gets bad efficiency. I thought I had it figured out but it’s so unreliable with the 2.0 mod. It’s so inconsistent and I don’t get why. It’s the first year I didn’t shoot it at Slims. My Gargoyle shot flawlessly tho so no complaints there. But the EV2.0 body ruined my go to bullet proof marker.

I’m going back to CCI.

This is how I'm feeling now too. This used to be my air it up, set my insert to what paint I'm using, shoot 290 all day long 99% no issues ever (damn leaky CCM macro fittings)

[Chuck E Ducky]

Yup I made that mistake to. Even tried that hard line with the CCM fittings. They shouldn’t even sell a phantom with macro line. Just put the hard line on all and be done.

[SignOfZeta]

Why are you guys such haters? Can’t you just keep promoting the Phantom until we’re all dead? I don’t like it when things change.

A Phantom with “2.0” improvements to the breach and grip and freaked barrel now costs nearly as much as a Freeflow cocker and not only does Freeflow make a splendid cocker it can actually maintain velocity without leaking.

EV made the most reliable gun in the world unreliable…nonfunctional even. Impressive.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Late model CCI Phantom w/ an ASP detent mod is the meta SC marker #ChangeMyMind #MagicMile

[JeepDVLZ45]

Pretty much! The additional “improvements” since then, while cool ideas (spring feed, 2.0 frame), all seem to be poorly executed.

[JeeperCreeper]

Lol you guys and your Phantoms. My old brass plumbing always flows!

[Chuck E Ducky]

Well switched mine back and she’s shooting money.

I also think I figured out what the issue is today. I got some ideas how to fix the 2.0 as well. I will post later my findings. I definitely figured out why it so inconsistent. Also think I figured out why you need the red springs to get any kind of usable velocity out if it.

[Carp]

Seriously though, inquiring minds want to know.....👍

[Chuck E Ducky]

Traveling back from RI

[Chuck E Ducky]

Ok so what I have found so far when comparing the two different valves. The way the pressure enters the Valve body on the 2.0 kit is much shorter than the traditional way with the side tap for Hardline. Due to this they drilled the valve body not only in a tighter bore but also less space. I think this can be resolved buy. Drilling it larger and back farther this will increase volume in the valve body lowering pressure required to get velocity.

Now the inconsistency, I noticed the slot for the pump rod it oversized this allows the pump arm to slide up and over with use. The roll pin design to stop it is very thin due to the over size Chanel. This bases the aluminum and It mushrooms out into the channel the sear rides in. This it’s why it’s incredibly in constant. I’m going to talk to Extreme about what I found. I think it’s fixable and I could definitely salvage mine with basic hand tools. I shouldn’t have to tho.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Basically the entire back half of the marker valve is solid they don’t drill it back much farther then the entry point threw the frame. I’m going to drill it back so it’s the same size volume as a standard VSC valve. I bet this is the pressure issue and also why it chokes at less extreme temps. Not only is the hole smaller it’s also not as deep so it’s got a substantial difference in valve chamber volume. It’s the only difference I see comparing the CCI valve to the 2.0EV valve. See my poorly drawn picture above lol

[JeeperCreeper]

So what if you just drill it for a gauge on the back of the valve? That would add volume

[Chuck E Ducky]

That’s Probably the easiest solution. I’m going to just drill it out more as I like the clean look with no gage. They don’t really have a useful function other than knowing if the marker is aired up. I figure extreme cold easily test my volume theory driving threw thread it for a grub screw tighten it into the valve till you start to see a velocity drop with the TPC 1.5 turns in from flush and stock silver springs. Back the grub screw out half a turn and take some measurements cuz that’s going to be its sweet spot for that particular frame setup.

[pghp8ntballer]

Chuck E Ducky if I remember correctly, doesn’t the valve spring sit all the way at the back of the air chamber in the BBA and vert air valves? If that 2.0 chamber is so small, that seems like it would be severely compressing the valve spring compared to normal. Which would require quite a bit more main spring force to open. I don’t have a 2.0 valve or anything from Extreme so I can’t compare myself. Does that sound like a potential situation too Chuck?

[Chuck E Ducky]

The spring seat looks to be the same depth so spring pressure should be very similar between the two valves. What’s different is the amount of space stored behind the valve. With a CCI valve the passage is larger in diameter and deeper into the back of the valve body. They didn’t go as far back when drilling the 2.0 valve body because its porting enters much closer to the valve. But in doing this it severely decreases volume. I think that is the issue with them.

The small inner lines should still transfer the pressure just fine it’s not like a SC phantom is going to suffer from recharge rate issues (Shoot slower silly).

[Db1060]

following

[plunderin]

Using my 2.0 valve as reference, my buddy Ryan at Super Stanchy Customs milled a prototype valve body with increased internal volume up yesterday and we did a little tinkering.

With less than ideal paint and low air, we were shooting 268-276 with silver valve spring, red main spring, and a 9/3k with 900psi output.

He is going to make a second valve that has been drilled for a rear gauge, which should add additional volume, and we are going to do a better testing/chrono session today.

I also have a green valve spring on order to throw into the testing mix.

All the milling he has done so far should be able to be done to a EV 2.0 valve.

[Havoc]

I wouldn't send anything to stanchy he likes to keep things

[JeepDVLZ45]

I know that first hand…

[plunderin]

People can change.

[Chuck E Ducky]

So if you look at the valve body from the threaded valve side in. Not only is the internal air passage past the valve spring perch smaller but it’s not as deep as a CCI valve. Did you check your sear slot to see if it’s getting bashed up? I know mine had a large burr big enough to interfere with the dropping of the sear. This can create a less than ideal strike on the valve creating major velocity fluctuations.

Im going to add a 22 shell caseing to my pump arm Rod hopefully this keeps it from sloping around in the frame relief for that rod. I’m going to shorten up the throw more so the handle stops the pump arm as well. I usually adjust it so it seals nicely on the barrel I’m using. But I’m going to adjust it shorter see if that helps.

Oh also make sure you are using the older style cup seals I think the new ones are causing a lot of problems because C02 permeates the softer rubber they are using for cup seals.

[plunderin]

I have been using one of the flared brass spacers on my pump rod and it definitely takes out some slop in the pump stroke. I don't see any deformation of the slot like you had in the picture, but I also have very little use on the frame since I havent been able to get it to a usable velocity. I am using Mike Cassidy Era cup seals, when he announced his retirement I build a little parts kit with like 5 of everything.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Mine has less then a bag threw it for the same reason. I couldn’t get it to work properly. Every time I thought I had it it would not work in the field. I have a CCI frame with min 15+ years of play on it in various configurations over the years that shows less wear.

[plunderin]

Got to do some more testing today.

Volume estimate for the OEM 2.0 valve is .295 cu inches

Volume estimate for bored out 2.0 valve tapped for a rear gauge is .59 cu inches

Tested set up:
Modified valve body
red main spring
green valve spring
a good underbore with freak XL inserts
900psi input

I was chronoing around 293-297 with one spike up to 310. Had a change in my days plans that pulled me away from anything "scientific" but I think that combination seems to be the key.

[plunderin]

[plunderin]

There's the setup with the prototype modified valve. It should be able able to be done on the OEM valves as well.