Phantom 2.0 frame velocity issues

[Chuck E Ducky]

So after increasing the volume you still needed the red Spring to get velocity? That’s with 900psi input too. Dang that sucks. I thought boring it out would help a lot more. I’m not even going to bother messing with mine then.

[SignOfZeta]

The EV testing method for a new part seems to only involve testing how popular pictures of it are on social media. If they had done even the amount of work that was done just in this thread they would have known to not to put this thing into production and on sale, same with macro lines, brass lines, the spring feed, and the 2.0 body.

[SuperAtomic]

What was wrong with the brass lines? I'm interested in picking up a set but if there is a known issue maybe I'll hold off.

[Snowking63]

Has there been a consensus on this? I need a hardline but not sure what to order yet.

[Handy]

I've been running a brass line on my main Phantoms for years now, as well as on a few lesser used guns and I haven't run into any problems if that helps in the decision making.

[estin]

I'm sticking with my OG CCI Phantom. Mike Cassidy FTW, the legend will nEVer die!

[Chuck E Ducky]

Not going to lie I swapped mine back and it’s shooting money again. It’s staying this way.

[flyweightnate]

I'm deeply disappointed - and relieved. This was high on my list when I finish some urgent house projects, but if it just doesn't work... yikes. Glad I didn't get around to spending money on it.

I might go back to scheming towards a correctly- functioning gas through frame, if it's this bad.

I'm shocked it takes a different spring combo to get to velocity, even after boring it to the same volume. That just doesn't compute... unless the shape of the bore or position of the inlet create some odd dynamics around the cup seal. I want to STUDY this thing, but it's not $300 worth of curious.

[estin]

Also glad I saw this thread before taking a chance on an EV 2.0 Phantom. The fact it even needs a red hammer spring kills it for me. Red hammer spring ruins the pump stroke at the very minimum imo. Not working on top of that?

[latches109]

I haven’t had any issues with mine, I just threw it all together with the parts I had on hand. It shoots 285fps very consistently. I have not played with it on the field yet, but have had fun with the dual 12g set up in the back yard.

[latches109]

I always thought running unregulated 12g, smaller volume was best.

[Socalpumpballer]

It’s one of those tropes that doesn’t seem to die. You want lower the volume of unnecessary add ons. Like running a rear drop out instead of a vsc to get that extra velocity on the last shots, But you can’t just choke the flow to death and effect how the valve functions

[latches109]

Wasn’t there an old MCB thread where they were getting 60shots off a 12g. I seem to remember devolumizzing was part of the recipe.

[Impactfour]

I have a vague memory of someone jamming wire into the airline tubing for that very purpose latches!

[latches109]

When comparing the 2.0 valve body and a back bottle valve body, the BB is .72" deeper at the same diameter. My BB valve is more efficient than the larger VSC valve by 3-10 shots depending on follow up shot speed. Hypothesis: drilling a little further into the 2.0 valve body should net the same efficiency as a back bottle valve. I will do this for science.




eric idle from monty python

[latches109]

I am back with results.

• Projectile: reball
• Air source: 12g CO2 ( 43g )
• Barrel: CCI Freak XL .675 insert
• Radar: X-wing & Clock 66 (clock is precisely 2FPS slower)
• Modifications: Valve chamber was drilled from the rear straight and threaded 1/8" NPT
• Tests: 12g/43g bottom line using ICD lever changer (x2), 12g/43g Vertical with ICD lever changer, Dual 12g/41g with two ICD lever changers.
• Spring: brand new from a phantom spring kit - softest one - bule/purple?
• Velocity: 280-300FPS

Results 35 full velocity shots, 3-5 additional 250 fps shots and dropping to 200psi where is stopped counting. The dual 12g yeilded 88 shots, 75 full velocity and the rest were dripping until I stopped at 200FPS. I feel like you can still get close and tag someone at 200FPS. I did two test one shooting rapidly, and one shooting slowly. The rapid shooting was 35 shots, and the slow was 42, I was able to squeeze a few more shots with patience.
The 12g orientation had zero effect on shot count. My only weirdness was the dual 12g shot at 270 for the first 15 shots then went to the ~290fps for the rest.

Thoughts: I was very happy with the results, this was a significant improvement and an easy modification. I never had velocity issues with mine, but it was not shooting this many full velocity shots, I got 28 iirc before he mod - need to rewatch the video.

Video and FPS records to come when I have time to go through it.





PSI when the velocity started to drop


Dual 12g test set up.

[latches109]

yes for sure adding more volume helped. I didn't choke on the 300+ rounds I put through it. Temps were warm 75* I will test with silvers for you.

I thought about that but wanted to see the results incrementally.

[TIJUANAIRONMAN]

I'd love to see a video on how to do this modification

[latches109]

TIJUANAIRONMAN get the valve square to the universe and drill & tap for 1/8th NPT. Really simple. I’ll take a depth measurement for you.

[Booska]

Also have results similar to latches109

I took a 3/16" bit to the hole behind the valve spring and roughly tripled the depth of that hole.

Results Pre-Drilling Valve:
--------------------------------------

1. Cheap GI paint
2. HPA @825psi
3. Red spring
4. 2.0 gas through frame

***Struggling to get 290 fps***

Results Post-Drilling Valve:
---------------------------------------

1. Cheap GI paint
2. HPA @825psi
3. Red spring
4. 2.0 gas through frame
5. Drilled valve

***Shooting 330-340 fps over the chrono***

I had to swap in a silver spring and back out the TPC to get down to 290. I also think I can try a blue spring next time.

My experiment is much less scientific than the others, but it looks like Chuck E Ducky was definitely right about the 2.0 valve having volume issues.

Going to see how it shoots with a blue spring and a 12g next time I play. Also need to keep an eye on consistency in case I somehow screwed that up.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Did you drill out the feed lines or just adding more valve volume fixed the issue.

[Booska]

I just drilled back the hole that's behind where the valve spring sits. The feed line hole used to be at the back of that hole, but I drilled that hole back about 1" and now the feed line hole is actually towards the front of that valve hole if that makes sense. I should post a picture when I get a chance.

I didn't touch the feed line hole that's allows air to flow from the frame into the valve (assuming that's what you're referring too). Although, I am a bit surprised that those holes are so small. I guess recharge rate isn't something that would be an issue on a phantom between pump stroke, but I don't get why they'd use such small feed line holes.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I think they were trying to reduce volume to keep efficiency up but in turn created no place for the co2 to expand. So my theory was correct adding the volume back fixed the issue cool! I will have to mess with mine it’s been sitting in the parts bin.

[Booska]

Chuck E Ducky latches109

Here's a few pictures as well showing the previous depth vs the new depth after drilling.

I marked a wooden dowel before and after drilling to get an idea of how much deeper it really got. Looks like the depth of that hole increased by 1 1/16".

Tried to get a decent picture looking into the valve. Stuck an o-ring pick through the feed line to show where it is in relation to the hole depth.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Nice well done. That’s what I was thinking drilling it from that side to hide it all.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I’m thinking about opening that air passage port a lil larger on the valve somewhere between that and the 12g something is slowing recharge rate.

[Booska]

Definitely let me know how it goes. I wasn't subscribed to this thread before, so I'm just catching up on what I missed. Haven't played with my phantom since I finished building my 2 snipers.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Oh yeah 3/16 drill bit worked perfectly. Extend the inner bore leaving appox 1/4-3/8 of material before it poked through. I didn’t want to add a gage. It looks really clean and it’s getting decent numbers. Not as good as it did with the hard line kit. But I wasn’t exactly taking much time between shots and it’s about 65* out. But 32 shots @280 isn’t bad on stock silver springs. This was larger overbore and crap leftover paint.

Need to field test it but drilling the valve out seems to be the answer.

So some things to mention I plugged the grip frame hole. So I lowered the volume even more I wanted to use a different grip for my build. I can get field speed with much lower spring pressure. Still need to test it on a warm sunny day. Last time I had it out it choked in the mid 70* weather. It’s definitely operating much more efficient now.

[latches109]

love this build

[Chuck E Ducky]

So I got a fulls days play on the modified 2.0 valve I may try going a lil deeper with the drill. Im approx 1/4” from poking through. I may take that down to 1/8”. I don’t think it’s a volume issue now. I think it’s a flow / recharge issue.

Some things I noticed. It recharges slower, you can hear the valve recharge there is definitely some flow restrictions. I’m not 100% sure if it’s volume related “now”. I think it may be air passages itself. Possibly the multiple right angles they make to enter the valve. The drilled ports are large enough I think judging by the hard line internal diameter. It could be the internal lines are off a bit restricting flow at the points they intersect. Or perhaps they don’t clear the hole enough. So flow is being restricted at the intersection points. I did notice the hole into the valve is smaller than the passage way port. I may try increasing the valve entry port size. So my next step is increasing volume a tiny bit more and making the valve entry port larger. I’m also going to pull the plugs on the air passages and insure they are clear of debris or burrs that could restrict flow causing the slow recharge. Last step will be drilling the passages larger re tapping them with larger plugs.

The symptom I would like to tune out is the delay in recharge.

To get full velocity shots it takes an extra “2 seconds” (ruff estimate) for the co2 to expand to full chrono speed. It will still get pretty good numbers and operates on stock silver springs but it’s still not perfect. Marker operates like a typical well tuned phantom just slower. Real world SC play it works fine. But the occasional quick follow up shot takes a few seconds longer to get that full velocity shot. So we are getting closer but it’s not perfect yet.

Those that drilled all the way through and add a gage are you noticing a delay in pressure recovery time between follow up shots on 12g?

Someone mentioned hogging it out and dropping in something similar to how RTR dose there valve with an additional piece to hold the spring seat. Or getting in the valve with an L shaped cutter leaving the stock spring seat position while adding more volume behind the valve. However I don’t think it’s a volume issue now. Something is slowing / restricting the flow.

*Important to mention I’m not using the 2.0 45 grip frame my frame is plugged under the trigger frame* mine is setup to run off the front passage only. This could possibly be effecting my results as well. However I don’t think it’s effecting recharge times.

[latches109]

Booska not plugging it would add volume, could help with the recharge

[Booska]

Would it leak out of the bottom though if you didn't plug it? Then you just have an open air passage sitting against your T-stock mounting point. Guessing that wouldn't be air tight?

[Chuck E Ducky]

Correct you need to plug the grip frame port if you want to use a stock or switch the frame out. Otherwise the passage is wide open.

[latches109]

Chuck E Ducky I just measured my frame and the rear frame port is 1", I doubt the set screw is restricting air flow. Also posted my air port to see if yours looks different.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Yeah I don’t think that is the issue. Is the hole in your valve body the same size as the one in your frame you just posted. I feel like the valve hole on mine is smaller I wonder
if that is the point of restriction. Maybe I should try opening the valve body hole a lil bit. See if that helps recharge rate. I feel like it’s got to be something simple choking it since the internal passages are similar diameter to the hard line. I’m not so sure just changing the flows direction would create that drastic of a change.

[latches109]

Did you check if they are concentric? Maybe they are misaligned