Cup seals

[Winklebottom]

Got an order of the PGP seals, just after had to replace my first cup seal due to a leak down the barrel. The PGP seal worked like a charm!

edit: on my second day of play one of the cup seals mushroomed so bad the gun wouldn’t air up or fire after about half a day. Hopefully the next one lasts longer, hoping it was a freak thing.

[Sherwoodsghost]

Any updates?

[Myfeetupontheground]

Got an order of the PGP seals, just after had to replace my first cup seal due to a leak down the barrel. The PGP seal worked like a charm!

edit: on my second day of play one of the cup seals mushroomed so bad the gun wouldn’t air up or fire after about half a day. Hopefully the next one lasts longer, hoping it was a freak thing.

Sherwoodsghost I am planning to offer a different 5 pack of seals the same size, but a higher duro. I have only heard of this issue twice in the phantoms, so I think its not a problem 90% of the time. But, i developed those seals for the PGP valve face seals. They weren't designed to be a constant motion part like a cup seal. But I will be doing some maintenance on the website this weekend to correct for this.

[Sherwoodsghost]

I ordered some universal black magic seals last week from a guy on here. I don't have this issue yet (just bought a 2000's phantom) and also going to order a new one. Herd the new phantoms are having the seal problem, don't know why they would change the old seal material if its all ready tried and true.

[Myfeetupontheground]

This is definitely not a common issue. I have sold more than 50 of these kits and only heard about the Phantom issue twice. And even then, it has only been with one seal and not all 5. I am hoping its just a oddball, but I am working to find out.

[Winklebottom]

Sherwoodsghost I am planning to offer a different 5 pack of seals the same size, but a higher duro. I have only heard of this issue twice in the phantoms, so I think its not a problem 90% of the time. But, i developed those seals for the PGP valve face seals. They weren't designed to be a constant motion part like a cup seal. But I will be doing some maintenance on the website this weekend to correct for this.

sorry for the late response all, Haven’t had any issues with the 2nd cup seal even after a couple of days of play. A little cold here for paintball So I will have to wait for spring for more data. Using a part other than its intended purpose having unforeseen one-off problems? Who could have guessed?! (Heavy sarcasm). Thanks for the hard work!

[Walker]

I ordered the entire assembly (powertube, nut/seat, cupseal) from EV and it leaked. That seat is hard as a rock...

Getting it apart was a pain, they used some type of glue/threadlocker on the powertube threads.

I popped a blue AutoMag reg seat in there and it is working fine. I'll see how long it lasts....

[flyweightnate]

EV switched to nylon for cup seals and pierce pins. Not a fan.

Myfeetupontheground sent me some test seals in a harder urethane and, so far, so good. (my garage was around 60F) They're a little thicker than stock (1/8") but i think stiff enough it's not a big deal.

Edit: maybe it was only pierce seals they switched?

[BopSpanks]

Walker
What did you do/use to get the powertube and cupseal apart?

[Walker]

The cupseal had a small brass insert in the center of it (like the tophat on an Autococker pneumatic barb). The powertube threaded into that, and there are also threads on the other side of the seal/insert, in the larger brass piece.

I clamped the powertube in a soft jaw vice and used pliers on the protrusion that the spring sets on. The main brass piece unscrewed and the seal itself and brass insert remained attached to the powertube. The seal twisted off the powertube by hand, but the insert remained. I heated that and was able to remove it from the powertube.

[redsquirrel]

Thanks Walker. This helped me too, though I didn’t see the need in removing the brass insert from the powertube after removing the seal.

I’m so confuse why EV would have switched to this cup seal material and concluded it was viable. It is indeed rock hard.

[BopSpanks]

Walker
Thanks for the information!

[The Jayster]

I just joined the goddamn club it would seem.

Used my EV Phantom yesterday (had for 3 years, worked fine except for velocity issues which I fixed) and all of the sudden midway through the day it acted up. At first my shots lost velocity up to the point where the balls would fall a few feet away, then it wouldn't fire at all. Checked my 13ci bottle, used another bottle, eliminated the hard line as the culprit, etc. When I got home I took the power tube assembly out of my CCI Phantom and put it in my EV unit and the gun worked fine. So I know it's the EV power tube assembly at fault and obviously therefore it's cup seal.

While with the CCI Phantom I was able to twist off the cup where the spring sits by hand, the EV one (as mentioned previously) is, for some unfathomable reason, glued or threadlocked. I tried to remove it using wrenches with padding not to leave idiot marks but it won't move. What's going on ?!? I have extra parts including two other cup seals but how the freakin' hell am I supposed to change it if I can't take the goddamn cup off? I have to order a new power tube assembly every time I get cup seal issues?!? I'm in Canada to boot, ordering from the U.S. is quite a haphazard experience nowadays, plus having to add 40% due to the exchange rate on top of that. Obviously, I want to be able to fix this locally.

For what's it worth, here's a picture of the EV cup seal, as well as a pic of the cup that won't bulge.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Have you tried heat. If it is thread locked it should loosen up with heat.

[The Jayster]

Stupid question here (sorry) but are we talking about blowdryer level of heat or actual fire level of heat?

[VintageZoomer]

Blow-dryer for sure! Don't wanna melt the brass

[The Jayster]

Thanks. I contacted EV and it turns out even Mike Casady towards the end would put blue Loctite on the threads so that the cup wouldn't move. I'll tell ya that's some mighty blue Loctite... As per EV's suggestion I put the piece in boiling water for a few minutes but the cup won't even bulge. Next step is to try with acetone and\or nylon pliers and a vice (which I don't have yet...)

[flyweightnate]

I will say, Loctite 243 is blue but often holds stronger than 271 (red) on passive metals because of the added primer. I proved this with torque tests on 18-8 bolts in a nitrided 4340 hole. The 243 would break at 34ftlbs, the red at 17, on a 5/16 bolt. My quality guy was incredulous.

I never thought I'd need some purple in the toolbox but here we are.

[The Jayster]

I will say, Loctite 243 is blue but often holds stronger than 271 (red) on passive metals because of the added primer. I proved this with torque tests on 18-8 bolts in a nitrided 4340 hole. The 243 would break at 34ftlbs, the red at 17, on a 5/16 bolt. My quality guy was incredulous.

I never thought I'd need some purple in the toolbox but here we are.

I can believe you. Either that or red Loctite was used by mistake. I tried with acetone, letting the piece sit in a jar for 48 hours, won't bulge. I visited several hardware stores and none have nylon-tipped pliers or wrenches; the cheapest vice I could find was $50... all that to change a $1 cup seal. I'm losing patience fast. Something's amiss here. Weren't Phantoms supposed to be reliable and super easy to service? What am I supposed to do? Order a new power tube with a loose cup? With shipping, taxes and the exchange rate that'll cost me almost $100.

[Chuck E Ducky]

$11.99 for the brass cup. I would put a lighter to it heat it up pretty good and use a pair of pliers at the point the spring sits that surface just holds the valve spring.

[The Jayster]

$11.99 for the brass cup. I would put a lighter to it heat it up pretty good and use a pair of pliers at the point the spring sits that surface just holds the valve spring.

The power tube assembly is $43.99 (in Canadian $ that would about $62 for me + say $20 shipping and an extra 15 in taxes and duties), which I would need if I can't remove the cup from the power tube, making all of my existing parts useless. Thank you for the suggestion of using a lighter, but wouldn't there be a risk to melt the brass cup a bit if overexposed to fire? I will try one last thing: I sometimes deal with a local handyman which surely has a bunch of tools I can borrow and see if I can twist off the brass cap (I might have to get soft jaw inserts for a vice - under $20, that I can live with). If that fails I'll contact EV again and see what we can work out for a replacement unit... but from what I read in this thread even then I may end up with seals that won't properly work?

[pghp8ntballer]

Unless you are using an acetylene or oxy-acetylene torch, you aren’t going to melt brass. The melting point of brass is ~ 1600-1700 degrees Fahrenheit.

A butane mini torch would be plenty strong enough. Even a propane torch for light duty plumbing would be fine. You probably just need a bit more heat than boiling water. A heat gun (not a hair dryer) would also get you the heat you need without damaging the brass. It will be a bit slower than a torch though… but we are talking sub-15 minutes of total work (not heat time) with a torch or heat gun.

[The Jayster]

Awesome, thanks - I'll consider it. I took another look at my CCI valve, whose cup I can twist off with my fingers. I noticed that there is some residue on the threads, which indicates that Loctite (blue or purple most likely) was applied at one point. I then noticed that the cup seal sat deeper into the cup, while the one on my EV unit filled it up. I surmised then that the cupseal on the EV unit was swollen and therefore might add resistance when I tried to twist it off, so I cut it and removed it. The cup still won't bulge but at least with the cup seal gone I guess that acetone might seep through into the threads more easily, so I tried another 48 hour acetone bath. Slim chance I reckon but worth a try. Next step will be heating it up with a propane torch or heat gun. My handyman buddy must have all that (and a vice, etc.). Incidentally I sifted through my tools in the garage (I call it the 'car hole'... Simpsons reference but I digress) and saw a few hand vices that might do the trick. The challenge however is not to mar the parts. I thought of cutting down nylon inserts to prevent that.

The silver lining in all of this is I guess is that when you encounter issues like this, you A - get to know your gear really well and B- get inventive and resourceful.

[flyweightnate]

Perhaps the threads on the new one aren't full depth, so it seized?

It might be worth trying a chlorinated solvent. Aircraft remover, brake cleaner, etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about nicking the skinny part of the brass, where the spring sits. Filing any ridge smooth afterwards will be plenty precise for what it does. It's just the powertube to be careful with.

But yeah... butane should be OK on the brass unless it's one of those super torch things we used to melt pennies in high school. And even then, probably fine. Heat it until spit "crackles" on the surface, like water on a pancake griddle. That'll get you 300F+.

[The Jayster]

Got to visit the head tech at my field and with the proper tools he was able to take the cup off in less than 20 seconds (...)



I have an orignal extra seal from CCI and the newer version from EV. I tried the EV version and sure enough the gun leaked through the barrel. I replaced it with an older CCI seal and the gun works perfectly.

The EV version didn't quite sit properly into the cup, and I noticed that the hole is slightly off center (both red lines are of equal length);