Why can't an EMEK run CO2?

[Rainmaker]

Just a quick question. I know PE states that you should not run CO2 in the EMEK, I'm just curious why that is exactly? I'm assuming it has to do with the orings? Or the valve? Someone more knowledgeable than me undoubtedly has the answer.

[Daltech]

Because C02 is in a liquid state at room temperature. It needs time to expand into gas. It works ok for 1 or 2 shots but after that your sucking in liquid and that chews through seals. The liquid is cold, (think refrigerator compressor).

When you start trying to shoot 15 balls per second. Your basically shooting liquid c02 that freezes as it changes state from liquid to gas.

[Nish]

Boiling point of liquid CO2 is less than -100*F. That's a heck of a cold room.

[Daltech]

You shouldn’t run C02 in anything anymore. There’s no point. Never was. Find a dive shop. Buy a scuba tank and a fill station for $100.

[Chappy]

Never was? You may want to consider how old some of us are.
Besides CO2 smells better.

[Jonnydread]

Hard disagree! I prefer co2 in quite a few of my markers. The sound quality is more muted, it’s more efficient and packs a bit more oomph. Also, co2 self regulates to a degree. If I were only running spool guns or shooting wicked fast I may prefer HPA, but my esoteric guns pair well with an esoteric propellant 🙃

[coyote]

"Never was"

I disagree with this statement based on the history and economics of the sport.

Until the late 1990s it was nearly impossible to find any local paintball field with an air system. Rental fleets , the bread and butter of these outposts were powered by CO2.

That was an economic decision. The retail price of a 20 oz CO2 tank was $35 or so. A similar sized HPA system was 10 times as expensive. Add to that the cost of a cradle, as the OG air systems were not screw In an required a mounting system that would likely cost another $75 retail. HPA made no sense for a rental fleet until the economy of scale caught up.

If a local field could not provide me, the player with HPA after I've plunked down $425 on my Air America Raptor Rex and KAPP drop zone , I still need to buy a scuba tank (or 2), a fill station, and have a reliable place to fill my scuba tanks. If you don't want to spend in excess of $600 for propellant with no infrastructure, you spend $75 on a Palmer Stabilizer.

I'm thrilled HPA became the industry standard. CO2 had a time and place. I still use 12 grams. I haven't filled a CO2 tank in probably 15 years and I am happy about it.

[Ecapnation]

None of the seals in any of it are the correct type of material for CO2. They will absorb and swell.

[Lt. head-shot]

Besides the whole "CO2 eats seals" part... I believe its mostly due to there being no room for any co2 expansion since the regulator sits directly on top of the asa. Hence the sucking in co2 issue. most of the older stuff had room for expansion before the valve, or had a valve that was fine with co2 but gave it the rapid expansion once firing (like a nelson or sheridan).

[flyweightnate]

If you do suck up liquid, then it expands inside the spool, I could see it being a very bad day. Could get up to 1100 psi inside parts designed for much less.

[William the Third]

You can use CO2 just fine on an EMEK, or really any modern "HPA/Nitrogen" only marker, IF you keep the liquid out. You'll possibly be rebuilding the reg/marker more often though. Liquid CO2 is a problem for a few reasons, but the biggest one is that if liquid CO2 gets past the reg, it will expand and over-pressurize the marker. If the reg/marker doesn't have an over-pressure relief valve, this could lead to hot shots, seal failure, or even other more catastrophic failures.

[DocsMachine]

Because C02 is in a liquid state at room temperature. It needs time to expand into gas. It works ok for 1 or 2 shots but after that your sucking in liquid and that chews through seals. The liquid is cold, (think refrigerator compressor).

When you start trying to shoot 15 balls per second. Your basically shooting liquid c02 that freezes as it changes state from liquid to gas.

-It's interesting to see how much knowledge is lost in such a short period of time.

The statement above is both quite right and badly wrong: CO2 is liquid only when pressurized, at room temperature, and 'time' isn't a component, heat is. The CO2 requires heat, extracted from the gun, tank, marker and local atmosphere, to turn into a gas.

Generally, the main reason modern markers don't recommend CO2, is because the gun's regulators. In use, the reg acts as a sort of check valve- if a touch of liquid can get past it, it can warm and expand afterward. And without room to expand into, can cause a pressure spike. For an inline reg, that can produce high velocities, for an LP system, can blow hoses and solenoids.

I have yet to run across a marker that, given typical anti-liquid measures, can't run CO2.

I'll fully agree that HPA is the better option- personally I only use CO2 out of bulk tanks to test markers, as it's cheaper for me to get a 20-pounder than it is to have a handful of SCUBA tanks filled. For any actual play, I use HPA.

Doc.

[Nish]

Does the ingrip reg have a overpressure relief valve?

Aside from oring tolerances that's the first reason that comes to mind.

Side note. Do you have a place to fill CO2?

[Spider!]

The emek reg does not have a relief, so that is a problem. Like doc said anti-liquid and pre-reg down to 300 or so would make co2 behave fine. But that kills the compact nature of it too.

[Ecapnation]

Also worth mentioning.....

Recommended input pressure from the tank to the emek is 400 psi.

Half what CO2 normally is.

//Close thread//

[William the Third]

Meh, they'll handle higher input pressures just fine. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the majority of EMEK are run on tanks with an output well over 400 PSI.

[Ecapnation]

They can.... It's not advisable though. I've seen a few deformed reg seats in emeks from HP tanks

[Toestr]

Also worth mentioning.....

Recommended input pressure from the tank to the emek is 400 psi.

Half what CO2 normally is.

//Close thread//

This is the bottom of the list of reasons eclipse would recommend against CO2. If input pressure really mattered they would have warnings plastered all over the box, gun and manual.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[Ecapnation]

The same people trying to run CO2 on emeks are the same guys who freak out about using it on mags.....

[Jonnydread]

I love running co2 on classic valves

[SignOfZeta]

You shouldn’t run C02 in anything anymore. There’s no point. Never was. Find a dive shop. Buy a scuba tank and a fill station for $100.

Preach, brother! I had a paintball gun in 1988 but I refused to use it until someone developed a 3500psi bottle for it. This wouldn’t come about for a decade but it was worth it to not have that filthy FILTHY CO2 in my gun.

[lhamilton1807]

Do you think co2 is filthy in a metaphorical sense or literal? IIRC pretty much all co2 sold at gas supply shops are food grade anyway. So if you drink carbonated soda at a restaurant it has the same “filthy” co2 used for paintball.

[Jonnydread]

lhamilton1807 I do believe Zeta is being his usual, sarcastic self

[MuKen]

You shouldn’t run C02 in anything anymore. There’s no point. Never was. Find a dive shop. Buy a scuba tank and a fill station for $100.

Also for context, the one marker I have owned the entire time I have played paintball and never once considered selling:

[Meleager7]

You shouldn’t run C02 in anything anymore. There’s no point. Never was. Find a dive shop. Buy a scuba tank and a fill station for $100.

Arghhhh.....I was 2 months too late getting here to read this post! Here's me in June 2022 , shooting a Spyder Victor II running on Liquid co2 , with an electro clapper frame !

https://youtu.be/w5hG0xcUhbI?t=107

Just kidding around with ya, I know your advice is entirely practical , with so many fields having phased out CO2 .

I tinkered with converting a spyder over to shoot liquid, just to see if I could do it. My guess is that where OP thoughts are in this post, just to see if an Emek can pull off shooting CO2 without imploding, for the fun of it.

I even had a couple new 20 oz siphon tanks put together , since I have a couple more liquid friendly guns to use them with ( a Montneel Z1, and 68-Special)

Cheers, M7