Mech trigger pull/ sear action

[Sharkytrav]

Otter's pages discuss removing a trigger's extra free travel, but I didn't see anything on eliminating travel between when the trigger engages the sear and when the sear releases the striker.

It doesn't seem like we need the full range of motion on the sear, right? Would anything shorter threaten to damage/ not engage the striker?

Maybe a couple/few layers of electrical tape around the pin that stops the down-travel of the sear?

Anybody try anything like this already?

[Toestr]

Techt makes pins of various lengths for Tippmanns that does what you're describing. It may threaten how reliability your gun cycles, and cause more wear to your sear.



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[foughtwolf]

I don’t think it would damage anything to make better geometry. It’s just an economy of scale sort of thing. When you’re pumping out stuff as fast as most clamshell tippmanns were a bit of acceptable slop in areas like that allow for well, some variance.

[Sharkytrav]

I guess my concern is that the reset would happen (on this spyder) with less material to grab and tension would be sitting on a smaller area while the thing is cocked and not in the process of firing. Not sure if the forces are enough to cause the hammer or the sear to deform. Was hoping someone had tried it before.

it just seems like the trigger pull is excessively long compared to the distance the sear has to move to release the striker.

[gabe]

Having had a few blowbacks come through with different trigger frames and different geometry that changed what you're referring to here's what I've found.

The mainspring tension is mainly what you're fighting with the trigger. Due to the disconnector nature of the triggers on blowbacks they have to both drop the sear as well as slightly push the hammer backwards (ever so slightly) which increases the weight of the trigger pull. On the Sentinel and a lesser extent on F4 Illustrators they changed the geometry to make it so the trigger has minimal travel to accomplish it's job however all the trigger weight builds quickly and peaks before the trigger breaks which makes for a nice short travel but a heavy one. The Spyder trigger frame has a long swing but it's relatively light and linear which honestly makes the stock Spyder double finger trigger frame WAY faster than the other 2 frames that have a shorter travel. Kind of like a swing frame on a cocker, it's light but long but that means you can really rip on it.

If you simply shorten the sear height to eliminate excess travel then you are focusing the force of the hammer stopping on the sear to a very small area which greatly increases wear on the sear. If you look at the forces acting on the sear it really is an extreme amount. The hammer flies to the rear, bounces off a bumper and comes to rest all on the little sear. In addition the sear has to move forward and back slightly to disconnect and reconnect it to the trigger.

How Tippmann got their triggers so short and light is a mind boggling feat to me but I think they are also blessed with a slower moving action and lighter hammer forces simply because its an inline layout instead of a stacked tube. Not 100% sure how that pencils out but just from observation stacked tubes seem to need a higher hammer spring. Might be the lighter hammer in a stacked tube gun.

[Sharkytrav]

I’ve had similar recommendations from a couple folks in PM discussions today too- That propping up the trigger-side of the sear will probably result in increased wear.

Sounds like I need to find a different solution or have a stack of sears and fatty strikers on deck.

[gabe]

Or just be happy with the trigger it has. Trust me, there's not much room for improvement on a Spyder trigger. Anything you do to it will either increase pull weight/decrease travel or cause it to be less reliable.

And just me personally, I don't take my Spyder/Illustrator/Sentinel to the field to throw ropes. It's a sunday rec ball gun.

[Seajay]

You really risk the marker running away, unstoppable full auto, by changing the sear dimensions. The Spyder cycle rate is very very fast, so at worst you rope some poor kid, and at best you blend your hopper and muck up the whole marker.

You can improve the operation and feel of the trigger by minimizing wobble and play, but outside of changing springs I would not recommend altering the actual cycle operation.
Lowering the operating pressure can be tuned so that you don't need a strong striker spring. This has the positive effect in making the cycle lighter, e.g. faster. Good o-ring and lubrication has a great impact on cycling speed.

[pghp8ntballer]

Adjusting pre and post travel and well as reducing side wobble can go a long way in improving the feel of a spyder trigger pull.

Adjusting sear travel can be done. I have done it. But it is certainly a mixed bag. Once upon a time, my original Spyder Sonix had about a 3mm trigger pull - full mechanical. this was accomplished by using pre and post travel adjusters as well as a sear travel adjuster. Once dialed in, it was very reliable to shoot. Fast, but not electro fast because you are still overcoming the mainspring tension on the hammer/sear interaction.

I've tried a couple times in recent years to duplicate this success. I have not been able to do it. I have a mish-mash of unknown manufacturer sears in various states of wear. I'm having trouble just keeping my favorites running reliably than tweaked to the max.

As the others have stated this is not a great idea. At the extreme of function, you risk reliability and runaway cycling. From personal experience, it can be tricky to get parts that jive together to do this. I have no doubt that if I kept my original marker I modified, the wear would have become a problem eventually.

But - it is possible. Trigger feel IS NOT improved by this but only shortened. When you get down to mm of travel, you lose the "feel" of the pull. The frames can be modified for this to be an adjustment and not a teardown, mod, rebuild, test, repeat until acceptable. As an adjustment it gives you the ability to dial in or dial back the adjustment. No matter how you do it though, its always reversible for function (can't reverse the wear though!).

This is MCB, so I say go for it if you are up for a tinkering challenge!

[Sharkytrav]

I am currently working on 3 Spyders and am considering various levels of tinkering with each.

What used to be Riot's purple Gothic has a trigger pull of 11/16" at the bottom of the second finger and 7/16" at the bottom of the first finger. Pre-travel work would shave off ~2/16" and 1/16" respectively with no room for post travel work.

Is that about what you are experiencing? 5/8" for single triggers and 9/16" for double triggers? I don't think I am going to be messing with that one at all. The other two are the real tinker fodder.


Option 2 could see a fair amount of tinkering but is waiting for a bunch of low pressure stuff to come in from AKA. I ordered the valve and bolt with cage. I already have a spring kit and lpc and vigilante regulator going on a classic body. Frame is bob long single trigger frame and I couldn't find any cheap solutions for a single finger trigger so I took a grinder to one of the many double triggers I have in a box. Did a very respectable job if I do say so myself. Trigger travel appears to be about 3/8" before any pre or post work.


Option 3 will end up lower-ish pressure but I'm only using what I have laying around, so much more tinkering will be happening. Esprit body, frame says compact deluxe, currently has spyder sonic front block but I don't think that will allow for a regulator (it has the weird setup for an expansion chamber). When I put it together, the bolt cocks but pulling the trigger won't release the hammer. Still fiddling with that. Trigger travel initially looks like 5/8" at the bottom of the double though it strikes me that this short travel may be the reason why the sear doesn't release.

[GanonsGrin]

It shouldn’t really take that much to trip the sear. Are you sure you have everything in the lower tube correctly? I recall seeing a bumper out of place in one of your earlier photos, maybe from another thread?

[Sharkytrav]

Yeah, that was on the option 2 gun in a thread about low pressure maybe or IDing the bolt and valve. It wasn't like that in the gun and the other two are put together right.

For the purple people eater it looks like pre travel might actually be able to shed 3/16, leaving 1/2".

The striker only has what, 1/16" - 1/8" depth? This is what baffles me about the length of the trigger pull.

The bottom of the 2 finger trigger starts with a little more than 3/16" free travel, then there is weight and a little grindiness for a full 1/2" until it releases the striker. Then a smidge more than 1/2" until the trigger snaps back under the sear on the back stroke. All to make the sear move that tiny distance.

Where is the efficiency lost?
-Not the oblong hole in the sear because it is pushed forward the whole time.
-The sear can move side to side a little bit and turn left or right but even if it rotated 10 degrees, I don't think that is causing it to get held up anywhere for longer than a perfectly straight sear would be held up.
- The rotational nature of the trigger makes the end have to travel farther so that is loosing efficiency but increasing the distance by 4x??

[GanonsGrin]

What efficiency are you losing by having play in a spyder trigger? I’m lost on what you’re trying to achieve in terms of efficiency.

also, you have more travel because you are also pushing against a tiny spring attached to the sear that returns your sear after the trigger releases it. I don’t think there’s much you can do to get rid of that unless you go to an electronic trigger.

like others have already stated though, if you try and trip the sear on a smaller portion of the lip then you will end up rounding it off and having your marker run away from you.

If you get a spyder trigger to pull and release smoothly front to back and eliminate the side to side slip then they are very crisp and responsive. I don’t think there’s much to improve after that. The side to side was the biggest issue I ever had but that’s easily remedied with thin washers

[Sharkytrav]

Efficiency in movement- The distance traveled to pull the trigger is much farther than the distance the tip of the sear has to travel to release the hammer.

I think Gabe and Seajay and pghp convinced me to mostly leave things well enough alone, but there will be some small tinkering here and there.

[Seajay]

Efficiency in movement- The distance traveled to pull the trigger is much farther than the distance the tip of the sear has to travel to release the hammer.

I think Gabe and Seajay and pghp convinced me to mostly leave things well enough alone, but there will be some small tinkering here and there.

You can definitely play with the trigger travel, I just wouldn't alter the sear. Essentially you are replacing a stock trigger with one like a Fang trigger that has adjustment screws (or near any more modern ish trigger). The Electronic versions also have screw adjustments for travel but those are a little easier to account for an electronic switch.