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PGP Wiki Deletion

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    PGP Wiki Deletion

    Someone on reddit mentioned this was scheduled for deletion, I verified they were correct and it appears that Wikipedia might delete this entry so I wanted to save the Wiki entry in case it gets deleted. I have not read the whole thing, I do not know how accurate it is, nor did i have any interaction with the writing of this, I just saw it noticed it was something we deal with, and wanted to save it before it went away.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20230617...intball_marker)

    The PGP is a paintball pistol originally manufactured by Sheridan. It is a "Stock Class" paintball marker, meaning that it utilizes 12 gram CO2 powerlets, and has a horizontal feed tube that holds 10 rounds.
    History


    The PGP was a direct development of the earlier bolt-action PG pistol, which was released in 1982. Users often modified their PG's with third-party pump handles to increase their rate of fire. In 1984, Tim McMurray, a design consultant for Sheridan, borrowed $14000 to buy all 200 of Sheridan's unsuccessful K Rifle and modify them for sale through his company, McMurray and Sons. Unbeknownst to McMurray, Sheridan had received a larger offer from another party, and one month later returned his money on which he now owed interest. To stay in business, McMurray innovated the pump handle modification using Delrin pump handles and conversion kits manufactured by Stanley Russell and Earon Carter of South Bay Arms and sold them independently through McMurray and Sons. Shortly thereafter, PMI began marketing their own conversion kits as the "Pursuit Pump Kit." McMurray was not reimbursed for nor credited with the design.

    The earliest PGP's were sold by PMI in 1985. These early models were actually Sheridan PG's which were factory retrofitted with knurled aluminum pump handles.[1] Whether by third-party or factory conversions, these are commonly referred to as "PG conversions" to distinguish them from production PGP models. Soon afterward PMI released the first PGP's which were manufactured from scratch for use with factory pump handles. These first generation PGP's retained the knurled aluminium pump handles from the PG conversions, but featured altered main tube geometry, a smaller diameter bolt, and a locking system consisting of a spring and ball bearings mounted within the bolt to prevent bolt rebound during firing. The knurled aluminum handle was eventually replaced with a ribbed aluminum handle, and the faux-wood brown plastic grips were replaced with black plastic versions. A short time before the 1994 Crosman buyout of Sheridan, the ribbed aluminum handles were replaced with black ribbed Delrin pump handles.

    Crosman-era PGP's standardized on plastic pump handles, no rear sight, a notched CO2 plug to aid removal by the use of a coin or other implement, and more warnings and information stamped on the brass body. These were designated "P-series" PGP's. The final old-pattern PGP's were the "PA-series" PGPs, which featured the newer cartridge-style valve.

    In 2001, the old-pattern PGP's were replaced by the new-pattern PGP's. While the included manuals still referred to these guns as "Model PGP,"[2] the parts list refers to them as a PGP2, and that they began manufacture in February 2001.[3] Thus, this model has interchangeably been referred to as the PGP2001, PGP2k1, PGP2k, or PGP2, and although technically it retains the original PGP designation, usually one of the former is used for clarity when referring to a new-pattern PGP.

    PGP bodies and frames were often manufactured and stockpiled for years before final assembly. Therefore, it is not uncommon to see final-generation PA series guns with rear sights, indicating that the bodies were manufactured almost a decade earlier. Lack of available internal PMI and Crosman documentation means that individual models can be difficult to date.
    Operation


    The PGP uses a Sheridan-type valve design which it shares with other Sheridan models such as the P68 and Piranha. It is also referred to as a "stacked-tube valve" in contrast with the popular Nelson-based "inline valve." This basic format developed into a semi-automatic valve design with the Sheridan VM68 and is the basis for the popular Spyder series of markers.

    The PGP design consists of three stacked brass tubes which are soldered together in parallel. The bottom tube contains the valve assembly and the 12 gram CO2 cartridge which powers the gun. The center tube contains the bolt and the barrel. The top tube is the feed tube, with a capacity of 10 paintballs. A 12 gram CO2 cartridge is inserted into the front of the bottom tube and secured with the threaded CO2 changer. Unlike most later designs, the 12 gram is not pierced by the piercing pin when the 12 gram CO2 changer is turned into position. Instead, the user must pump the gun and fire once to propel the piercing pin into the 12 gram and provide CO2 to the gun. Since this "piercing shot" provides no CO2 to the valve, many players developed the habit of deliberately inverting the gun to prevent a paintball from being loaded during this step as a measure against double feeding. Once the cartridge is pierced, the valve assembly is pressurized with CO2. The gun is pumped once more and is ready to fire.

    Actuating the pump handle moves the bolt rearwards to load a paintball, and cocks the hammer. The pump handle is returned to the forward position, moving the paintball into the chamber. Pressing the trigger lowers a sear which drops the hammer onto the spring-loaded valve, releasing CO2 in proportion to mainspring and valve spring pressure. CO2 is released from the valve body and finally from the lower tube to the center tube via a vertical slot, where it propels the paintball forward. The hammer returns to its original position and the process is repeated.

    The Sheridan valve design differs from the Nelson-style inline valve in that no CO2 passes through the bolt, instead passing from the valve body straight to the chamber. The bolt's primary purpose is to cock the hammer and facilitate feeding. When the pressurized CO2 gas enters the low-pressure center tube, it exerts force on the bolt as well as the paintball, creating a tendency for the bolt to rebound from its fully closed position. In the process, some of the energy used to accelerate the paintball is lost by accelerating the bolt instead, resulting in a loss of velocity. Holding the pump handle forward with one hand can prevent bolt bounce but also prevents one-handed shooting. As a remedy, the PGP bolt uses a spring and a pair of 1/4" ball bearings which lock into holes drilled in the frame, increasing the force required for both the user and CO2 impulse to open the bolt.

    Since paintballs feed into the chamber from the rear of the feed tube, it is standard practice to "rock" the gun with the muzzle pointing upwards while pumping to ensure proper feeding. Efficiency is dependent on ball-to-bore fit, velocity, temperature, and even the manufacturing inconsistencies of 12 grams, but approximately 20 paintballs per 12 gram at full velocity is standard. Optimal conditions can produce upwards of 30, and those with modified bolt and valve assemblies can achieve 35-40 shots per 12 gram.

    Design


    There are two main versions of the PGP. The newer PGP2 pattern has several upgrades over the original.

    The old-pattern PGP is made of three tubes of soldered brass, powdercoated black. A trigger frame is attached to the bottom tube by two screws, and the feed caps are also secured by an o-ring and a twist lock. It has no external velocity adjuster, so the gun must be taken apart to adjust it, either by cutting the spring or adding shims. P-series PGP's have the old style valve which requires a Sheridan valve tool for disassembly, while PA-series guns feature the "cartridge valve" design for easier disassembly and adjustment. All have a barrel length of 6 inches.

    As a variant of the PG, one of first commercially available paintball markers, the original PGP variants had a number of deficiencies which became apparent as the popularity of paintball boomed and the pace of the game increased. The CO2 changer was small, difficult to grip, easily dropped or lost, and was very finely threaded, requiring six full turns for removal and six more for reloading. Changing 12 grams in-game was a perilous exercise as the user was left essentially unarmed while they completed this long process and finally fired an extra shot to pierce the 12 gram. Larger, knurled knobs became available on the aftermarket, making the CO2 changer much easier to handle. Later, quick changer add-ons reduced the number of turns required from six to one, greatly improving the speed of the 12 gram change. The feed tube cap was not captive and a piece of string, wire, or shoelace was often threaded through the rear of the cap for retention purposes. Many owners drilled the rear tube for an external velocity adjuster.

    Recognizing the shortcomings in the design the original PGP, Sheridan's PGP2 featured many improved versions of the home-brew modifications that owners made to their old-pattern PGP's. The PGP2 has an external velocity adjuster, a CO2] quick changer, a longer barrel, fiber-optic sights, and a plastic feed cap that allows for quicker reloading time. However, the feed cap is made of brittle plastic and it is commonly lost or broken.[citation needed] The quick changer allows for faster CO2 changes than the old pattern. The longer barrel, besides improving accuracy, helps prevent users from placing their hand or fingers in front of the muzzle while changing 12 grams.
    Last edited by jokers; 06-20-2023, 08:37 PM. Reason: Fixed Wayback Hyperlink
    My Feedback: https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...ers-s-feedback

    #2
    That was a good read. Thanks for saving this.

    Fo sho somebody here wrote that

    I have a p series pgp and a 2k pgp and even though the 2k has upgrades it feels cheaper and lighter for some reason
    Last edited by anson; 06-19-2023, 06:15 AM. Reason: Added info

    Comment


      #3
      I created a wikipedia account so I could reply to object to the deletion. I added as many history website links as I could.

      I would recommend others do the same. You should be able to see all the other comments on the page so you can look for additional source websites.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe...ntball_marker)

      Comment


        #4
        Delete fails WP:GNG. Glad people are clearing up all this non-notable paintball fandom, as this is an encylopedia, not a Fandom site. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:12, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
        Can someone please explain to me what a fandom site is vs an encyclopedia? Also how am i supposed to take someone serious if they can not take the time to spell check the words that are important?
        The way that i understand a fandom site is for entertainment items, video games, movies, books and their characters. While Wikipedia is for more concrete items. While i do not expect that every paintball marker should be on wikipedia having a history of the makers, and or people of note would be good.
        My Feedback: https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...ers-s-feedback

        Comment


        • jokers

          jokers

          commented
          Editing a comment
          I also may be wrong but i feel like Fandom tends to be more toward fiction items and not real world items.

        #5
        I personally think its a losing battle. As Siress pointed out in the timmy thread, there is a list of criteria the data has to meet to be eligible to stay. Unfortunately since paintball publications, and information is long lost to lack of data retention, we can't really site enough good sources for the information required to keep these entries alive.

        Imo its a better idea to just get all the data to Vintage Rex and work on a database we can control.
        https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...khaus-feedback

        Comment


        • grd
          grd commented
          Editing a comment
          We can indeed cite offline sources. We need to scour APG and PGI scans for articles on these markers and companies, and cite them. I think that should back off these fuckers for a bit, but we need to do it fast.

        #6
        Notability. The general public might be interested in an article on the History of the Paintball Marker, but not a detailed article for every gun.

        I'd rather have content like that hosted here or on vintagerex anyway, and not subject to the editorial whims of normies
        Dulce et decorum est pro comoedia mori

        Comment


        • JeeperCreeper

          JeeperCreeper

          commented
          Editing a comment
          I was kinda thinking the same thing. If they want to delete history, then it falls on us to keep it alive.

          Wikipedia is like any other site, they need to make money somewhere. If nobody visits that page, there's no point in paying to maintain it.

        #7
        Did you post up the Timmy deletion thread? You're doing The Lord's work, son. MCB and Vintage Rex would be a great place to store this information.
        Feedback

        Comment


          #8
          I've been reading through the comments, and whomever is on the Wikipedia side of things is being a dick. A fringe sport? WARPIG is just a fan site? Wtf dude

          Edit: I'm referring to the responses with Ajf773
          Feedback

          Comment


          • ketzer7

            ketzer7

            commented
            Editing a comment
            It's a whole thing about how dysfunctional a lot of Wikipedia is. There have been many instances of extreme drama in their ranks between the hardos that are trying to run the show there. Unfortunately as a mostly volunteer organization, this seems to come with the territory

          #9
          Their stance on deleting the PGP entry seems a little odd when compared against some of the markers on this list that have their own articles


          Comment


          • ketzer7

            ketzer7

            commented
            Editing a comment
            I saw that for the Piranha entry

          • grd
            grd commented
            Editing a comment
            Don't give them any ideas ...

          • JeeperCreeper

            JeeperCreeper

            commented
            Editing a comment
            Alot of those pages are up for deletion as well.

          #10
          The SATCO link goes straight to to our DocsMachine

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