The small questions you've never asked.

[Siress]

Polished or Patinaed Brass which is better?

The one you have.

[Grendel]

Polished or Patinaed Brass which is better?

[lew]

Excellent. Thanks, folks. KAPP is one of those companies I never thought about, yet their wares were all over every paintball shop I'd ever been to.

[Rusty Brass]

I'm loving all these questions because it's making me track down the answers to things I never knew I wanted to know.

My question(s): What was the story with KAPP? Who were they, why were they, when did they start, and when/why did they fold?

Yet again, thank Velcor for Dan Bacci!

They knew the value of a good name - Kick Ass Paintball Products, and made good looking cocker frames.

https://paintballhistory.com/pacific-paintball-apg-january-1993/

And more...

https://paintballhistory.com/tag/kapp/

[DocsMachine]

Motion presented to the Praesidium: Doc Nickel needs to be declared a National Treasure.

-As long as it comes with a nice salary. And Nic Cage doesn't try to drag me off somewhere.

My question(s): What was the story with KAPP? Who were they, why were they, when did they start, and when/why did they fold?

-Can't answer most of that, except in a few vague terms. They were an aftermarket-part company that started out making 'Cocker bits like front and back blocks, and eventually branched out into Angel, Bushmaster 2K and other markers. The vast majority of it was "dress up"- everything they made came in a wide variety of colors, so you could color-match or accent-color your marker.

They folded right around the 2008 recession, when the industry crashed hard right along with the rest of the economy. Lots of people had to stop playing entirely, and most of those that could afford to keep going, didn't always have the cash for 'dress up' accessories. I can't say precisely what killed 'em, but generally speaking, few companies can see a 50%+ drop in sales and still survive.

I'd be interested to know some of the details, myself.

Doc.

[lew]

Is this thread title contradictory to us not asking small questions when we are asking small questions in this thread?

Yeah, but these are the questions we've never asked, so...

🤗

Motion presented to the Praesidium: Doc Nickel needs to be declared a National Treasure.

My question(s): What was the story with KAPP? Who were they, why were they, when did they start, and when/why did they fold?

[Knuckle Dragger]

Is this thread title contradictory to us not asking small questions when we are asking small questions in this thread?

[cellophane]

Most current markers that don't have bolts that are themselves pressure-bearing at some point of the cycle still do.

Is that a function of material strength / durability?

Yes, anything stacked tube will still have a plastic bolt. Spoolers are a different story. That said, the LV1.6 is the only current high-end stacked tube paintgun I can think of (FF, ID, & Palmer's stuff too, but those aren't mass-market). As a result, they're relegated to Spyders, Azodins, etc. You just don't see them much anymore due to spoolers being the current big thing in the high end category.

The J4 Torque is a stacked tube spool, but not exactly mass market either. And I never thought to look at mine, but it is a plastic bolt as well.

[glaman5266]

Most current markers that don't have bolts that are themselves pressure-bearing at some point of the cycle still do.

Yes, anything stacked tube will still have a plastic bolt. Spoolers are a different story. That said, the LV1.6 is the only current high-end stacked tube paintgun I can think of (FF, ID, & Palmer's stuff too, but those aren't mass-market). As a result, they're relegated to Spyders, Azodins, etc. You just don't see them much anymore due to spoolers being the current big thing in the high end category.

[The Inflicted]

What ever happened to using Delrin for bolts?

Most current markers that don't have bolts that are themselves pressure-bearing at some point of the cycle still do.

[Interl0per]

Wait, you're saying the AA had no science or engineering behind its design? I'm going to have to rethink my life...

Also, totally going to trademark "Bushamster"

[cellophane]

What ever happened to using Delrin for bolts?

[cellophane]

Fantastic write up! Thanks!!

[Rusty Brass]

You have to remember original paintball markers were used literally for just marking things (trees, livestock,..etc). They were not originally developed to play the "Paintball" (game/sport - a different debate/discussion). We were primarily just re-purposing already existing devices and some of those ended up being designed either as bore drop or breech drop by their original designers and for the purpose of marking thing neither were better or worse (fast/positive loading on the run was not a design consideration). What was important was the ability to load a projectile into a tool that can "reliably" send that projectile down range at "reasonable" velocity to ensure reliable marking.......

(Bunch of good stuff)

.....I personally like bore drops over breech drops I think the pros out weigh the cons but not by a huge margin and my go to stock class marker right now is a breech drop (Duckslide Phantom). I currently do not use First Strikes and when playing pump the chopping issue really is not that big of an issue (really almost unheard of for experienced pump players to chop a Phantom).

I think you got that covered pretty well. Bore drop seems like the better design but Phantoms are still the best (easiest?) platform for Nelson stock class so we all tend to roll with breech drop. I'd prefer a bore drop but that's not how it worked out, simple twist of fate.

[Grendel]

Breech drop...? 1st time hearing this term lol
why the hell would you want the ball to be forced over a ledge like that???

You have to remember original paintball markers were used literally for just marking things (trees, livestock,..etc). They were not originally developed to play the "Paintball" (game/sport - a different debate/discussion). We were primarily just re-purposing already existing devices and some of those ended up being designed either as bore drop or breech drop by their original designers and for the purpose of marking thing neither were better or worse (fast/positive loading on the run was not a design consideration). What was important was the ability to load a projectile into a tool that can "reliably" send that projectile down range at "reasonable" velocity to ensure reliable marking.

As time when on and player configurations started driving modification of existing then eventually into manufacturing these two branches supported and developed further with pros/cons for each. I do not believe either is better inherently but really is driven my use, technique and preference. (Pros/Cons below are based around Nelson style markers but breech and bore drop terminology can be applied to other style markers but usual is discussed around Nelson style markers)

Pros Breech Drop:

• Shorter Bolt/Hammer/Valve package from bolt tip to valve
• hopper position closer to trigger frame (better balanced)
• before the day of detents the breech acts to hold the paintball prior to loading into bore. If you train yourself to cock/load just prior to shooting verses keeping a ball loaded this helps prevent roll-outs (old school "trick")
• Not as finicky about shape and size of paintball so easier to get ball out of feed neck into body of the marker for loading (see the Con - not as gentle on paint)
• others I'm not currently thinking of....... (awaiting MCB hive mind to fill in)

Cons Breech Drop:

• Difficult to have two arm pumps (while it has been proven many times single arm pumps can be just as good as two this was a perceived disadvantage and lead to things like Colin Thompson (LAPCO) coming up with the Grey Spirit (bore drop) to supplement Grey Ghosts (breech drop) markers in the olden days).
• Chopping - not as gentle on paint (have to load into the bore over a "ledge")
• Incompatible with First Strikes rounds(tend to want to flip in the breech when loading (jamming/chopping vs. loading into breech)
• others I'm not currently thinking of....... (awaiting MCB hive mind to fill in)

Pros Bore Drop:

• Easily supports two arm pump configuration
• Less chopping (no ledge to load over dropping straight into breech)
• Potentially compatible with First Strike rounds
• others I'm not currently thinking of....... (awaiting MCB hive mind to fill in)

Cons Bore Drop:

• Hopper position further forward so more weight out front
• Roll outs, you are loading ball straight into the bore if the bore is much larger then the ball they'll tend to roll-out. (Detents, inserts or modified technique needed to prevent)
• Longer Bolt/Hammer/Valve Package
• others I'm not currently thinking of....... (awaiting MCB hive mind to fill in).

I personally like bore drops over breech drops I think the pros out weigh the cons but not by a huge margin and my go to stock class marker right now is a breech drop (Duckslide Phantom). I currently do not use First Strikes and when playing pump the chopping issue really is not that big of an issue (really almost unheard of for experienced pump players to chop a Phantom).