Old grumbler gonna grumble

[tetsu_no_usagi]

Hey folks, sorry for the rant, but I figured MCB is about the last place on the internet that has a chance of understanding what I'm about to type. Here we are, new board and only a year and half later do I figure out that it is a new board and I need to recreate my account. But good news, I can finally fix my foreign language grammar faux pas and now my name reads (I hope) "iron rabbit" as opposed to "rabbit iron" (or as everyone in KC called me "soggy test tube").

Anyway, it's been about 6 years since I've played paintball due to a number of factors, but where I see a lot of folks at this point announce "I'm back!" and ask when the next local get together is, I'm just here to sell off the collection. The sad part is, having not paid any attention to paintball since that last game, the sport as a whole has really made some moves in the right direction. Not to say everything is peaches and cream, but in the past week or so, I've seen some heartening stuff. Which is why this is in Dead Zone and not General Chat, because it's about paintball and the industry and culture around it.

I still see the "youths" in the BST forums looking for the latest hyper-shooter-blastem-flatter markers and hoppers, because buying rate of fire is always easier than actually acquiring skill. However, I see some of the top end companies are offering mechanical markers that are basically just their electro drive train with a mechanical multi-way valve in place of the solenoid. Yes, I remember when the Enmey came out, but wasn't too long after that I stopped participating and never really got to try an Enmey. This to me is interesting, because Tippmann has apparently changed hands and lost a bit of their famed reliability, and a lot of newer players and woodsballers are turning to markers like the Emek for their first gun instead of Model 98s or stacked tube blowbacks (sorry Spyder and Azodin). Plus these same manufacturers are also offering grip frames to turn their high end electros into mechanicals. I see they've got a mechanical-only tournament series, not as big as the NXL, but still out there and getting talked about. Whatever has brought on this mechanical resurgence, keep it going. I almost want to get back into the sport, but no, not happening.

Speaking of Tippmann changing hands, they've fully embraced the milsim look, haven't they? I admit there was a short period of time in the late '90s before I was fully into having my own gear and playing regularly that I thought what I wanted was a marker that looked like a real firearm, but then I got in and realized, like many of us, that paintball is its own thing and markers don't need to look like real guns. I guess I'm glad the Tippmann name is still around, but as a long time owner (still have my first marker, a Model 98 Custom from when they first came out) wish it didn't have to be this way. I do find it funny that, at the end of my time in paintball, Tippmann had come out with the Crossover - an electro that, with a flip of a switch, operated as a mechanical, so us woodsballers could have something that operated at whatever level of performance we needed. Which of course died, because it said Tippmann on the side of it so the tourney kids wouldn't touch it and us old fuddy duddies didn't think we needed it, or thought it was too expensive. And now Planet Eclipse (plus others) is offering grip frames to turn their top end electros into mechanicals. Huh. Maybe if a few more of us had bought the Crossover, Tippmann would still probably have been bought out/sold off, because that's where they were heading anyway. Still, I do find it odd.

Is anyone's local field (or personal field, if you run one) using Emeks with PALs as their field rental marker? Or even as an option with a bump in rental price? It looks like folks are getting the same reliability and rate of fire with that combo as I used to get with my M98C and a 12v Revvy (plus Turbo board and upgraded paddles), and they're pretty affordable. Oh, and they're offering the PAL in basic black, red, or blue. Why not offer it as field rental, and issue half in red and half in blue so everyone knows what team they're on? Makes me want to open a field (want to, but haven't won the lottery yet; as the old joke starts, how do you make a small fortune in paintball?) and offer the Emek/PAL combo as an upgrade, and something else as the base rental, with all the hoppers color coded to what side they are on, field paint only, and except for once a month when anything goes, you can have one battery, in the marker or in the hopper, but not both if you bring your own equipment.

Another segway, speaking of fields downgunning to protect their renters, who else's field is restricting "firepower" on their rental fields? I've read that Jaegers (in Kansas City, probably the field I've played at more than any other) has done this on their main, indoor rental field, which I long ago stopped bringing out my own electros to play on, preferring instead either the venerable Tippy or a pump. But I think this is a fantastic idea - the renters are the future of the sport, and if they get bonus balled by some wannabe with too much money (theirs or mommy's, it's the same either way), they generally won't come back. Plus the rest of us need more of a challenge playing against renters, and work on our other skills more.

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad one, but I saw that Oklahoma D-Day's last game was this year. The park's still open, just not running the D-Day game again, as I understand it. Is this because of COVID? Dwayne got tired of doing it every year and wants to do something different? Is the sport as a whole moving away from the huge games and trying smaller but more frequent events? What's the tourney scene like these days? I see NXL is still going and just had the World Cup, any other national/international competitors, or just regional series?

What do you folks think? Will these trends continue, or will the next generation of markers go back to the rate of fire arms race we saw not all that long ago? And yes, I'm getting all my gear together and back into working order to put in the BST forums here and elsewhere. I am hanging onto a few pieces to make myself a memorial wall display, but other than that, it's all going.

[lizardking132]

To talk about the rentals, the main field I go to, uses Emeks. They get the absolute snot beaten out of them and still work fine. The pal system is a bit iffy at best, but the markers themselves are bullet proof. The only thing I still don't like about the Emeks is the price. You'll see people all over the place preaching about buying one for a starter gun, but they cost $280 or so right now. Seeing as it's release price was $220 I think it should have stayed there. But with covid and prices rising I can't complain to much. Also, tippmanns and spyders are still easy to find dirty cheap for projects, as always.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

Thanks for the info. I've been tempted to use an old EIN to get into PE's dealer website and see what price they're offering them to dealers for, but that smacks of work and I'm only slightly curious, not seriously so. I had kind of noticed they were spendier than folks who had reviewed (probably when they first came out) them said they were. Wonder if prices will go down after we get over our employment and shipping crises.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Prices are not going to go down you can guarantee that. Oil, gas, coffee, paper most of your everyday products are all looking at 50%+ inflation. Prices will only skyrocket. Expect to pay double while pay rates remain stagnant and slowly bleed the middle class dry. Paintball will take a huge hit in the next few years I don’t see many commercial places lasting. It’s a luxury sport and the first thing you cut out when you got no money is the luxury hobbies. We are in for a rude awakening, bills due for the money we spent and we don’t even make enough to cover the interest. Guess who’s going to be paying for that, give you a hint it ain’t a rich.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

Chuck, I don't know what you're talking about! We only gave corporate America a 14% tax cut last year and non-business owning political nutbags defending the cut with the most ridiculous logic and reasons. Or the most milktoast, vanilla, offend no one webcomic putting on the 'net putting out this comic: http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/211112.html

Okay, okay, I'll get down off the soapbox. I did have hope when Trump was promising that he'd simplify the American tax return to something you could turn in on a post card, as that would close a lot of loop holes that very wealthy people enjoy, and while I wasn't going to be making more, at least other people would be paying their fair portion. But then I guess his CPA realized the same thing I did, and that was the last we heard about that little plan.

[Cdn_Cuda]

My local field has been changing over to Emeks. Same rental price as whatever they were using before but definitely a higher quality gun for renter to use. The Emeks came into the market cheap put have seen steady price increases. They are over $400 Canadian at the moment.

The mech resurgence has been good, and as you noted a lot of high end guns have mech options. This has lead to a mechanical arms race, if you will. You can get Emek upgrade valves that increase the rate of fire to the point where you can walk them. So the despite being mechanical the push for faster guns is still there.

And I’m sure the resident vultures will gladly help you with that gear you want to offload.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

Thank you for the info. Regarding the mechanical arms race, I got to watching some of the 10 man ICPL vids and it does remind me a lot of the late '90s, just not as many 'mags. Cockers are popular, about as popular as the electro-as-a-mechanical markers are. And lots and lots of paint getting flung, lots of extra shots hitting players... Yup, a lot like the late '90s tourney scene.

Not too worried about most of the gear, just some of the things we have never, as a sport or industry, had a good answer for, like expired air and CO2 tanks. Oh well, we'll see what sells when I get it all put up online.

[Headshotted]

Vulture here, lemme in on that. The most local field to me actually rents out Etha's, iirc with or without eframe options. You've gotta pay more and they keep them maintained so they just seem to work pretty well. It's more older people coming back to the sport here than it is newer players buying in, but I'm okay with that. Rental crowd here is pretty healthy, I've only played at the same place so far this year twice, but we're talking end of the year and seeing 40+ people on the fields by the end of the day with groups rotating in and out between airsoft as well. NPPL is apparently back with an all mech format, so that's brining a lot of old markers out of the works and new markers having mech options, with, modern tech being what it is, some really cool gear out there. Will it ever be as cool as the ol' automag/autococker wars? Probably not, but it's nice to see them on the field again. Tippman...is a weird one. Saw a guy with the raider the last time I played and honestly surprised as to how well it runs.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

Keep an eye on the For Sale forums, I have a little bit of everything - electros, pumps, mechs, hoppers, barrels, tanks (not all past the 15 year mark, but do need to get re-hydro'd), packs, pods, and even clothes and protective gear.

And thanks for the info. I've at least looked at a Raider online, was actually talking to a friend about the parent marker recently, the D'fender, as he was talking about getting a Warp Feed going for a crawling rig. I pointed him towards the D'fender, same idea just different placement of the hopper system. Or I swear I saw someone about a decade ago put a mounting bracket on between his grip frame and ASA that held a standard feed neck out to the side of the marker. A Rotor went into the top, a Warp Feed hose came out the bottom and into the marker's feedneck (or a Warp Feed side block, can't remember exactly, it's been so long), and it fed pretty much like a Rotor with the downside of the Warp - once you ran out balls in the hopper, there's nothing to push paint down the tube and into the chamber.

[Headshotted]

Sounds good, sad to see the collection going, but you'll at least know it'll be going into good hands.

[Magmoormaster]

My local store has been converting to Emeks as their rental fleet, but it is costly so it's been slow going.

As far as the Crossover is concerned, tourney players didn't buy them because they were crappy guns, not because they said Tippmann on them.

I don't think OK DDay dies because of Covid. It hasn't been in the zeitgeist for like a decade. Honestly I didn't realize it was still going on when they announced that they were going to stop running them. But in general, I don't think the big game/scenario game is very popular in general anymore. They're expensive to run and aren't really that profitable. And IMO, they tend to be a downgrade in terms of player experience. I almost exclusively play speedball, competitively or otherwise, and I see WAY more cheaters and overshooting at these big games than I do in tournaments or tournament style play.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

Wasn't the first gen Crossover problematic, but they fixed all the problems with the second gen, the XVR? Could have sworn that was the case, but I never got to use one for more than a couple of plinking shots at the range.

I do seem to remember that really big games were a cheater's paradise - too many players, too few refs to watch them all. Thinking back on it, I think I would prefer smaller events as in a game like D-Day, what I was doing wouldn't have much of an effect on the outcome of the game, but at smaller games, I'd be contributing more. Oh well, not getting back in anyway, so my opinion counts very little.

[Magmoormaster]

No, the XVR was a half assed excuse for an update. All they did was add in a barrel adapter and an inline on/off, like the Trinity or NDZ ones. It did nothing to fix the crap electronics. They did offer a free upgraded trigger for any Crossover owners regardless of model, and that helped. But at the end of the day, the drivetrain had manic reliability issues shot like total garbage. Better than a blowback maybe, but still not on par with their competition.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

That's sad to hear, electronics should be easy with all the advances we've seen in computers and microchips since the introduction of electro-markers, and you'd think they'd have figured out the drive train or licensed a proven one from someone else. Ah well, way too late now for Tippmann to make a 3rd generation and fix all the issues.

[iamthelazerviking]

Inflation is making everything shitty. Paintball included. Also paint quality is all over the place. But I won't ever quit. Getting back into pump again because building snipers is fun and shooting less = saves money. I have an Emek too, they perform so good. Hard to get rid of. Have sold em before and always regret it and buy another. But it's lame they are nearly $300 now when they were $219 originally.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

I am glad that you're happy in the sport. Are fields having employee retention issues like so much of the American economy seems to be having these days? Or because it's usually enthusiasts who get jobs at paintball fields, you see just as many employees at the fields now as you did before COVID?

[Chuck E Ducky]

Retention issues come from the fact most Americans get payed more on government assistance then they do at there low skill jobs. So they work the minimum and then go back out to collect. The jobs are there people are just choosing not to take them because they can, while the rest of the middle class pays for it. People that ref at fields are enthusiasts and do so because enjoy it. But some fields I frequent are having trouble finding people to work but I feel like they have had this issue pre Covid as well.

[Jonnydread]

May I ask why you are so hell bent on not playing? I'm happy to join the flock of vultures, but it makes me sad when I see long time ballers adamantly getting out of the sport.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

I think the biggest part of why I'm out (I haven't played in about 6 years and except when I've needed to move all my gear tubs, haven't really thought about paintball until the past month, so I'm out, I just have a lot of gear to unload) is my knees gave out about 5 years ago. 10+ years of running an average of 6 miles a week on concrete every week, plus all the other stresses of being in the Army and a genetic tendency towards bad knees and backs (lots of blue collar workers in my predecessors), and my knees make popcorn noises just bending without a load. Oh yeah, I could probably slow my game down, play back more, but I have too many friends my age with bad knees that refuse to stop playing their physical hobbies and they've had multiple knee surgeries (and soon replacements for one of my friends), and I don't want to get that bad. Add onto that the rate of fire issues we saw at too many fields a decade ago, and that I want to put my time and money into different hobbies, and I felt it was as good a time as any to duck out.

[Chuck E Ducky]

The Emek is great for renters. It puts them on an even playing field. Some of the top fields have gone as far as offering dual pain lenses to renters. So there first time on the field not only are they not out gunned but can see what they are shooting at. It’s a good time in paintball to be a renter. 50cal low impact, Jelly ball it’s all great options even hooking younger kids now.

I see Inflation actually help paintball in a way. Paintballs and playing will become so expensive that people will start getting into limited paint formats. Game play will get better and at the same time new player experience will get better. Unfortunately overhead and taxes are going to destroy most commercial paintball fields. I see Outlaw and Stock Class resurgence building to fill the void left by commercial fields. But I don’t see many average income people being able to or willing to afford the luxury sport we call paintball in the near future. It will come full circle hopefully but our sport is in for a rocky road the next decade. I expect to see many fields close in the next 5 years. Especially the ones that are hanging on shoe string budgets after COVID shutdowns bled them dry. Never thought I would see Boston indoor and Top Gun go, big boys die a death by a thousand cuts. I don’t See NXL lasting with the clientele they are attracting these days. Inflation will kill Speedball for sure it will be the first to go especially Nationals.

[tetsu_no_usagi]

I used to think .50cal was a joke, but with laser tag making a resurgence, and even Nerf making their Rival and new Hyper lines of foam ball "blasters", I think this is also a good option for getting a younger crowd into the sport. And PE offers Emeks in .50cal, though when I first saw that they offered them in both calibers, I thought they would have a quick swap kit, but that's not the case. You can do both calibers out of the same body, but you have to swap so many parts to go from one to the other, you're better off just having two separate markers, which isn't a huge draw for players or for field owners looking to utilize both calibers.

And while we can sit here, with no emotion involved, and say "yes, prices are going up but my paycheck isn't, I need to switch from electro to mechanical or mechanical to pump, immediately!" but no one else will. Most folks will double down, playing and shooting more, and then suddenly they will be at a financial crisis and be out of the sport as they're selling off gear (and other actual necessities, like transportation) just to make ends meet, all because they had an emotional event when their local field announced a bump in prices. Those already in and keeping their wits about them will rejoice at the glut of used gear on the market... until no one shows up to play against or keep their local field in operation, and suddenly there's no paintball in their area at all. At least, that's the DoomSayer in me, hopefully the inflation spike will be brief and we'll get more folks back into jobs soon. COVID is practically over with (I'm vaccinated, it's not hard folks), now we just have to pull our collective heads out of our collective 4th points of contact and get on with it.