Will it go Liquid? ....Different Paintball Guns on Liquid CO2

[Meleager7]

I'm starting this little thread for any interested paintball mad scientists to re-explore interest in liquid CO2 as a propellant.

Back when paintball started, 12 gram co2 powerlets (borrowed from the pellet gun world) were an obvious choice to power those first guns. Then increasing co2 capacity with constant air 7oz bottles was a logical next step.

The gun designers Tippmann and Montneel really had something, when they decided to design the valves in their guns around Liquid CO2 ......liquid co2 was very consistent , and not affected by temperature fluctuations of gaseous CO2.......

Still so many gun manufacturers did not adopt it, instead fumbling about expansion chambers, and angled ASAs and anti siphon tubes to try to deal with gaseous co2 velocity swings.....

With the advent of HPA , and electronic guns with their sensitive solenoids.......I think that was the death for liquid co2 !

Anyhow, it is a fantastic propllent in my limited experience with it, and I will be using this thread to test a few of my guns with "going liquid" !

More to come.......

[infamoussmiley]

68 Specials,
98s
Pro Lites
Pro Ams
Carbines
VM 68s
Spyders
Mokal Mirage
Mokal Ultipro
Patriot

[Jonnydread]

Siphon is fun as hell to shoot in the winter, so smokey!

[The Inflicted]

Pretty much any Nelson pump.

[Euphie]

In my experience most Nelson, Sheridan and blowback guns can be made to run on liquid. The real limit seems to be some O-rings don’t handle the cold well but most cup seals are fine

i have always avoided anything with a dump chamber, with the theory that it could try to expand in that chamber but it is just that a theory, it might not happen so easily. It would be really interesting to make something like an unregulated automag with a siphon tank and see how well it works

[Brokeass_baller]

I think the problem with Automags and CO2 lies in the on/off (on classic valves anyway). These o-rings shrink substantially when chilled.

But, I think you have an interesting point. Possibly create an adjustable choke for the dump chamber to control velocity, instead of a regulator. Kind of like a Tippmann. That might be cool.

[MrBarraclough]

I just remembered that there was indeed something that was like an unregulated Automag: the PGI F.R.O.G.

It was a blowforward with a spring return that regulated velocity by having an adjustable volume dump chamber, as I recall.

[Brokeass_baller]

I remember reading about those as well. Essentially mechanical Mayhems. They did have a bottom line regulator. But I can't remember how velocity was controlled.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I think FROGs were closed bolt. So they must be more different from Automags than we remember.

[DocsMachine]

Strong recommendation: Don't try to run anything but spring-striker-fired poppet-valved guns on liquid. Anything with a regulator, dump chamber, spool valve or solenoid is pretty much right out. You will damage something.

I will say, however, that I once ran a 'Cocker on liquid. In the early days when an HPA system was still $400-$500, which I couldn't afford, and this being Alaska which means, if you don't play in the winter, you don't play much

Very simple setup, I threw it together from loose parts I had laying around. Pre-2K 'Cocker, with the small front block bolt. I simply used a solid bolt rather than the hollow banjo. Then I ran a braided hose from the bottom of the front block (where the usual "gauge port" is these days) to a duckbill bottomline, with a 7-ounce CO2 tank.

Then I had a 12-ounce siphon tank, which I simply ran vertically.

The LPR and cocking mechanism was run on the gas from the 7, and the valve on the liquid from the 12. The seal around the front block bolt wasn't perfect, but once both sides were pressurized, there was nothing to leak.

And actually, it worked great! Wasn't a big fan of the vertical tank, but I played a good chunk of games that winter, with it. (Then we got some HPA tanks, and that was the end of that. )

Doc.

[The Inflicted]

Strong recommendation: Don't try to run anything but spring-striker-fired poppet-valved guns on liquid. Anything with a regulator, dump chamber, spool valve or solenoid is pretty much right out. You will damage something.

I will say, however, that I once ran a 'Cocker on liquid. In the early days when an HPA system was still $400-$500, which I couldn't afford, and this being Alaska which means, if you don't play in the winter, you don't play much

Very simple setup, I threw it together from loose parts I had laying around. Pre-2K 'Cocker, with the small front block bolt. I simply used a solid bolt rather than the hollow banjo. Then I ran a braided hose from the bottom of the front block (where the usual "gauge port" is these days) to a duckbill bottomline, with a 7-ounce CO2 tank.

Then I had a 12-ounce siphon tank, which I simply ran vertically.

The LPR and cocking mechanism was run on the gas from the 7, and the valve on the liquid from the 12. The seal around the front block bolt wasn't perfect, but once both sides were pressurized, there was nothing to leak.

And actually, it worked great! Wasn't a big fan of the vertical tank, but I played a good chunk of games that winter, with it. (Then we got some HPA tanks, and that was the end of that. )

Doc.

Dual gas sources for the two halves of the operation? That's kind of brilliant. Makes me wonder how many cycles it would be possible to get out of a 13ci tank only powering the pneumatics.

[Grendel]

Never felt nostalgia for CO2. After shooting some Automags setup with N2 bottles and chatting with Tom Kaye and Mike Lauterborn (sp?) at IAO back in 92 I was sold. As soon as I could get a HPA bottle I did and have never been happier with getting rid of CO2.

[Euphie]

My nostalgia is mostly the fact that with a 90/4500 I can’t even shoot all of the pods in my harness without running out of air. Strapping a 5lb co2 tank to my back though would let me do it.

[Meleager7]

I will say, however, that I once ran a 'Cocker on liquid. In the early days when an HPA system was still $400-$500, which I couldn't afford, and this being Alaska which means, if you don't play in the winter, you don't play much

Very simple setup, I threw it together from loose parts I had laying around. Pre-2K 'Cocker, with the small front block bolt. I simply used a solid bolt rather than the hollow banjo. Then I ran a braided hose from the bottom of the front block (where the usual "gauge port" is these days) to a duckbill bottomline, with a 7-ounce CO2 tank.

Then I had a 12-ounce siphon tank, which I simply ran vertically.

The LPR and cocking mechanism was run on the gas from the 7, and the valve on the liquid from the 12. The seal around the front block bolt wasn't perfect, but once both sides were pressurized, there was nothing to leak.

And actually, it worked great! Wasn't a big fan of the vertical tank, but I played a good chunk of games that winter, with it. (Then we got some HPA tanks, and that was the end of that. )

Doc.

that’s wild you put together a liquid cocker build, as the thought had crossed my mind as well! When I pictured it in my mind , I envisioned using jb weld to close up the banjo bolt, and then use a 12 gram and changer to power the pneumatics. The valve would be fed a liquid diet of co2 by the Siphon tank on an angled bottom line asa , steel braided line,etc .

[Meleager7]

Here is the first gun I'll be testing with a liquid setup....got rid of the volumizer, and capped off the front. Still not sure if I need to try to further reduce volume in the chamber in front of the valve .

What I will change is the springs. I have some spring kits from ansgear stuck in Canada customs in Vancouver , BC for 13 days and counting....all for a tiny packet of springs. Incredible!

My plan is to use the heaviest valve spring, to limit the amount of liquid co2 that will flash into gas in the valve. I'll start with a light mainspring and tune from there.

This gun has a shocktech oringless supafly bolt, and I hope the effect is delicious co2 clouds bursting from all parts of the gun when fired !

With its electro sear tripper frame, this Spyder might be the only example of an electro-liquid paintball gun in existence (at least until this new trend in paintball takes off! )

[Tarsun2]

minty fresh Victor with good mods right out the gate. Most people that bought these would go right to the rattle can or cammo duct tape but the clamping feed neck, trigger, and barrel were some of the best things you could do to it. very nice place to start IMO.

[Meleager7]

Thanks man, yeah, i'm starting to really dig this little spyder ! it's light, it points well and i was fortunate to still be able to find those new old stock parts!

[grendal50]

There was a video somewhere of a PMI Piranha running off of liquid, they had a clear hose from the asa to the front block so you could see the liquid travel through.

[Meleager7]

cool, if you find it, post it here! ....or make a new vid ! :P

[Chappy]

@hplovecraft had a video of clear line on a mega z s well. You still got that NIck?

[Meleager7]

I got my springs in finally (it took 1 month from Cali to Ontario, Canada), a warrior main and valve spring kit.

https://www.ansgear.com/Warrior_Paintball_9_Piece_Spyder_Spring_Kit_p/warspyder9pcspringkit.htm

Installed the gold valve spring ( stiffest) and the black main spring (weakest).

It cycles fine on a regular co2 tank, with the rva backed all the way out.

I just need to get my Siphon tank filled, then I can chrono with some paint and see where its at!

[Hp_lovecraft]

Like others said, any non-regulated poppet valve gun should at least function. Some might have a hard time getting below 300fps, needing springs cut, I've found that anything made from the mid 90s on tends to have a large chamber for the valve. This tends to have a negative effect on efficiency when using liquid co2, But thats pretty minor.

The main issue is that the thermal cycling tends to cause wear on low-quality plastic parts. An infamous example of this is the Tippmann 98c. Up to the Model-98, Tippmann officially supported siphon tanks. They were an option from the factory, and recommended them. But by the late 90s, many guns were becoming popular that would be damaged if a siphon was accidentally used, so they decided to end all support for siphons. The Model-98 was redesigned as the 98-Custom and used a weaker plastic power-tube. People being people used siphons anyway, and those power tubes cracked.

And that was that. After 2000, no factory supported them and retailers started letting stock run out. Fortunately, easy enough to make. A small issue arose when someone sued a paintball company over a bottle rocket, and many valves have extra holes and grooves cut into them, making them useless for siphon tanks.

But, one interesting side note- The original Vector was rated to run on siphon. The designer had stated that it was one of the primary design goals. The vector is basically an autococking sterling, with a pneumatic trigger- So a ram, 3-way, and an LPR had to handle liquid. Air Power designed the LPR to be very robust, and vent if any liquid gets into the pneumatics. They got away with that with the C-version, adding an inline regulator. I'm not sure if that version was liquid safe.

The early Palmer autos were also liquid rated. The original rock had a very strong liquid venting system. Glenn himself had stated that Typhoons and Strokers could run a siphon tanks. Like the Vector, they were designed with the ability to handle liquid, on purpose or accident. By the mid 90s, most people had switched to the non-venting micro Rocks.

I always found it odd that the Autococker used such a worthless LPR when it came out, yet the Vector, and Typhoon had very well designed ones. But it does beg the question, if an autococker had a rock, could it run liquid?

[Meleager7]

Hi HPL, how does Delrin fare with cold temps? I picked a delrin Shocktech supafly bolt to 1.) remove some orings out of the equation and 2.) I hope it creates more co2 cloudy goodness!

That is great intel on the Rock Regulator and that it can handle liquid! I knew the longer rock regs could deal with some liquid getting in there, but I had no idea they could actually operate fine on it.

Liquid Autococker next?.....hmmmm

[Meleager7]

The main issue is that the thermal cycling tends to cause wear on low-quality plastic parts. An infamous example of this is the Tippmann 98c. Up to the Model-98, Tippmann officially supported siphon tanks. They were an option from the factory, and recommended them. But by the late 90s, many guns were becoming popular that would be damaged if a siphon was accidentally used, so they decided to end all support for siphons. The Model-98 was redesigned as the 98-Custom and used a weaker plastic power-tube. People being people used siphons anyway, and those power tubes cracked.

When I saw this metal power tube from Trinity , it made me think of your post . Now a liquid 98 Custom can finally be born from icy cold depths!

https://www.paintballgear.ca/trinity-model-98-tube

[Brokeass_baller]

I can say I've had great results with my RAP4 aluminum power tube from MCS. Picked it up for my Tornado (because why not?) No tolerance issues.