Was I Overcharged for Machine work?

[shooter311]

So I had some small things I wanted done, and I didn't think it was worth bothering one of the Paintball machine shops since it seemed like simple stuff to me. So I went to a local place and I described what I needed and showed them, they said that it was really simple stuff and they could do it in between jobs. I should have discussed prices, that is on me, he just said it was simple stuff, so I figured it couldn't be too much.

What they did:
-Tap a cocker detent into an old sterling body
-Drill a hole so I could mount a Phantom ASA onto a Sterling grip frame
-Tap a 10-32 hole in a hammer for a micrococker
-put a steel bar in a micrococker back block

I will say they did a really good job especially with the Microocker back block, but I was blown away when he told me $360. I told him that was way more than I was expecting, and he told me the back block alone took 4 hours. I said I didn't expect that at all I was thinking like $75-100. And he said that people off the street have no idea what they have invested in the business, and he pointed to his shop and said there isn't a machine in there worth less than $200K.

I get it, but I figured most of this stuff was something they could do with a drill press. What do you guys think, is this the amount I should have predicted? What do you guys think this work should have cost?

[netsurferdude2]

$60-$75 per hour for setup and machining time at an inexpensive shop. 4-6hrs of work. That price sounds about right to me for any normal machine shop.

[shooter311]

He said he normally charges $80 an hour, but charged me $60 an hour since he liked me. I think $80 an hour was more than fair. I was just blown away they spent 6 hours on this stuff. I figured everything except the back block would have been an hour, then maybe an hour for the back block. I know little about machining though.

[netsurferdude2]

Something to consider... Some of these parts are annoed or small pieces. What if they needed to make fixturing to protect the finish or hold an odd shape? I take on small machining jobs for some businesses, friends, and cool projects and the one thing I have found is the setup takes just as long as the work. You paid for professional work and got some parts that were all done correctly so it was a win. Just next time find a friend with a mill and discuss the price up front.

[iamthelazerviking]

I am going to have to say yes. $360 for those services seems astronomical. I always send small jobs like that to BMC, even if there is a back log he does great work and the pricing is more than fair.

[shooter311]

I have always sent stuff to BMC, and just sent some stuff to Mozak. I thought their prices were low, but now I realize they are unbelievably cheap!

[maggot]

That's a really tough pill to swallow. Were you able to talk him off the $375 figure?

Problem is that you basically gave him a blank check by not asking for an estimate.

[shooter311]

Yeah, we just bs'd for a while and he made it out like this was a super quick job and not going to be anything to them. This is 100% on me, I always ask for a ball park.

[Ecapnation]

That's about right. I am impressed you didn't hit a minimum charge wall.

[imped4now]

His time estimate seems very high (4 hours on the back block?!?!) and that price does indeed seem very high. I'm fairly confident I could've done those items in my very small, very humble basement "shop" in far less time, to an acceptable degree of accuracy and for 1/4 the price.

However, there's a difference between paintball knowledge and a standard machinist.

[pintbuster]

Hard to say, I am comparing apples to oranges across a few different shops. I would have expected $30-50 for each though, using a paintball guy.

[RuleOfSines]

So, I think the price is accurate given the stated amount of time, and they may not be totally bluffing on that time. I suspect that shop went the full mile with that work, CNC machine, programming them to do the work, etc. A guy a with a mill could have just done it by eye in 30 minutes

[Mr. Hick]

I used to charge a full day's pay to hang storm and screen doors. It would take me around an hour.... but I had to load all the tools, bring all the tools and use all the tools. Cost of doing business is just that. A storm door was $300 to hang regardless of time. I didn't own a machine shop, or pay a 3 phase power bill, or buy expensive tooling.

You got good work without a failure or destroyed parts at a reasonable price. Paintballer's are spoiled when it comes to the cost of custom work.

[zinger565]

Another difference is that paintball guys know the parts, how to handle them, and the quality/precision expected. "Regular" machine shops don't. It's just a part for them, and they're not in the business of screwing up a customer's part by marring the finish, of center drilling, etc etc

[Cunha]

Sounds about right to me.

[flyweightnate]

The bigger the tools, the longer the first part takes.

A Bridgeport with a vise can do a job in 15 minutes... but to put the same part on a Mazak might be an hour to get dialed in. Of course, on the Mazak, the second through hundredth parts would be effortless.

The biggest mistake in a shop is to not keep a small manual machine handy for odd jobs. My last shop, minimum order was $300. Anything less, and we wouldn't even take your card. And that included welding and sheet metal, not just machining.

The paintball smiths are truly a dying breed, in that they both have the small, flexible tools needed, and the specific familiarity to know what is and, more importantly, isn't important to get perfect.

Was it fair by the standards of the big shop? Probably. Are they a good match for what you needed? Nope.

[imped4now]

This is probably the best and most accurate answer thus far.

[BrickHaus]

Sounds about fair to me.

Sure you could have gotten it cheaper, but if he took 4 hours on the back block, then he took time to care.

[JCC]

BMC is way to go. He really undercharges on somethings so I have added 20% gratuity for the custom stuff he did for me. Machine work is pricey though. I had to have an exhaust manifold bolt that broke off down in the hole removed as nothing I was trying would do the job. Cost me $75. Will say the guy did go ahead and take a bit off the aluminum head while he had it at no extra over the agreed upon $75. Guessing he had time between jobs and was something he was setup to do quickly. Was appreciated as never know if aluminum head to a cast block will seal up if you don’t, but I was planning to risk (and did for the other one).

[DocsMachine]

[cracks knuckles]

Professional machine shop, here.

$60 an hour was cheap. They did you a favor. I'm actually surprised their day-to-day price was only $80. Locally, the machine shops around here start at $150 an hour.

I have comparatively low overhead (shop's paid for, with few exceptions the machines are paid for, I have no employees, etc.) A big professional shop can and often will have building or lot rent ($10K to $25K a month for big industrial is not unheard of) they probably pay $5K a month in power and a similar large figure for heat (if they're in an area where they need heat) plus employees, insurance, payments on the machines- and there's stuff that most of us don't think of, like having to pay to have old coolant disposed of.

I can easily see that backblock taking four hours- probably at least an hour (or a rounded-up-to-an-hour) just to plan the fix, setting up a mill- if they did it on a CNC, which it sounds like, there was probably an hour programming, tooling, and maybe even test-running the program, and so on.

That leaves just two hours, at $60 each, for the other two jobs- again, they very likely 'rounded up' because one took 45 minutes and the other maybe took 40, but that's the way this sort of thing works.

AND... that's why us "paintball airsmiths" are, in fact, a dying breed. There's no money in it. Personally, I could be working week-on, week-off on the North Slope, as a machinist. I've had several offers over the years- the last offer would have started me at $80K. For effectively half a year's work. Any decent machinist realizes they're drilling and tapping detent holes for what's basically beer money, when a real machine shop will pay them a real wage.

The only reason I'm still doing it, besides the fact I'm just plain weird, is that I hate working for other people, and the oilfield stuff in particular, would be boring. You'd do little but turn the same drill-stem threads, and rebush the same pump housing, day in and day out.

That's why the online paintball shops ARE so busy- everyone gets a staggering local-shop price, and then when the paintball shop says "yeah, I'll do that for $45", you jump on it.

Long story short? You actually got a pretty good price for a typical professional job shop. You should have gotten a quote first, really, but no, you did not get scammed or overcharged, etc.

Doc.

[Ecapnation]

One of the biggest reasons I stopped....

I ran into the paintball players basically give no shits about the work involved into making things. When I was doing pumps and loudeners they would run me about two hours to do.... I was charging only $40 an hour for lathe work then. Yet I had to under price to sell them.

Fast-forward now I won't even turn a manual machine on for less then $100. CNC? Ha! 500$/hr