Marker Modes

[Deerslayer]

After reading about the various modes, I'm finally beginning to understand them. It seems to me that some of the rules around NXL. PSP, and Millenium are arbitrary, designed to enhance the games. I understand that. However, paintball is essentially a sporting event modeled on war. Most personal firearms are fairly simple and have few 'modes' - semi auto, 3 round burst (maybe some others), and full auto. If we stick with these, they also mostly have firing rates in the 700 to 1200 rounds per minute. A marker powered by compressed gas will have certain limitations compared to smokeless powder, but with rule based limits, we are firing paint between 600 and 1080 (18 bps) balls per min - and this compares favorably with firearms.

Why are markers not set up similarly to firearms w/ semi auto, burst, and full auto modes? Looking around, it seems you only get the flexibility to set these modes in higher end guns.

Is there a reason or is this simply to make the various games more challenging?

[RAZRBAKK]

I don't agree that paintball is modeled on war. I've always thought of it more as exaggerated tag.

Speedball is a different beast all together, and the technology moved with the game to become what it is today.

There are also plenty of Semi/Three Shot Burst/Full Auto markers out there. Mostly for rec/woods ball.

Frankly you can't equate the milsim and speedball. Completely different games.

[Trbo323]

Few reasons,

1) competitive play would only use full auto, no question about it and because of that would use an absolute s ton of paint
2) because of #1, amateur leagues would also have to follow suit and basically do the same thing but in their case since the amateur players are not sponsored that huge paint cost has to come out of their pockets
3) because of #2 you would have less players getting into competitive play. Not only from a cost stand point but a new player trying it out and getting blasted on full auto is very discouraging
4) because of#3 you now have a handful of amateur players at a local field with nobody to play against, they get bored and go play in the woods, now blasting the new players and birthday groups there
5) because of #4 you now have less repeat customers and the local field goes under, harming the sport in general

We used to run 15bps but paint costs for amateur leagues were getting out of control and professional play was really boring to watch (still kind of is) because you could just lay down a lane of paint that nobody could get through. Lowering it to 10.2 helped in a few ways

On to the modes, with a little practice and a good electronic double trigger a player can get into the 15bps range on semi auto. There was also an epidemic of cheating in the mid 2000s as players found it easier to put secret modes on the board over practice their trigger work. The real problem was how to catch it for the refs. So rather than develop new ways to catch the players cheating they started allowing ramping modes. As the ramping modes were pretty easy to use most players no longer felt the need to cheat. The other advantage to ramping modes is it's possible to shoot in semi auto until you really need a higher rate of fire so it actually saves paint over using full auto all the time. Same thing with burst modes. If you pull the trigger and see that you are shooting at a leaf and not a player, too bad, you have already wasted the rest of that burst. This also comes into play when playing against new players. At a closer range if your aim is decent the least you can do is hit the new players 3 times

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[Trbo323]

I don't agree that paintball is modeled on war. I've always thought of it more as exaggerated tag.

.

I'm with razr on this. There's a few scenario games that are modeled around military but the exceptions do not make it true for the whole sport.

In general the strategies and tactics are completely different. Paintball is fully willing and does sacrifice players to move the team up the field. Military this is avoided at all costs. Range, accuracy, reloading etc all different.

Just because it has a barrel and a trigger doesn't make it modeled after the military

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[Deerslayer]

1) competitive play would only use full auto, no question about it and because of that would use an absolute s ton of paint

That makes perfect sense, so why not simply outlaw full auto? Or limit the ammo one can carry to say, two pods and let the players use it as they wish. I've been watching some paintball on youtube, and more than a few of those guys seem able to throw a tremendous stream of paint downrange on semi auto and ramped modes. Indeed, trying out some higher end guns (than my Trilogy) has shown me how easy it is to hose down the field. Sensitive triggers, no recoil, ease of holding the marker steady, made it easy for me to quickly concentrate on accuracy while hosing down the target. I'd imagine that adrenaline and the excitement of the game will limit accuracy somewhat, but that is easy to overcome with practice.

a new player trying it out and getting blasted on full auto is very discouraging

To say the least.

We used to run 15bps but paint costs for amateur leagues were getting out of control and professional play was really boring to watch (still kind of is) because you could just lay down a lane of paint that nobody could get through. Lowering it to 10.2 helped in a few ways

It was my understanding that 15 to 18bps is about the limit for a marker for mechanical and reliablity reasons. That said, I would imagine that the difference between 15 and 10bps is not of major practical importance if someone is going to be trying to throw as much paint as he can.
[QUOTE=Trbo323;n452070]
On to the modes, with a little practice and a good electronic double trigger a player can get into the 15bps range on semi auto. There was also an epidemic of cheating in the mid 2000s as players found it easier to put secret modes on the board over practice their trigger work. Same thing with burst modes. If you pull the trigger and see that you are shooting at a leaf and not a player, too bad, you have already wasted the rest of that burst. This also comes into play when playing against new players.[QUOTE]
Exactly, with the modes, full auto is almost superfluous. I don't see how this significantly limits expending ammo with the ease that these guns will fire.

I was going to ask about cheating and hacking boards, but you answered that one. I disagree with you that firing in a burst wastes ammo, esp if you manage to tag an opponent with one of the 3 balls. Compared to rapidly hitting the trigger, a 3 round burst is thrifty!

[Trbo323]

That makes perfect sense, so why not simply outlaw full auto?

It basically is. There's really only a few markers that even have full auto as a mode anymore and those are all aimed at milsim woodsball players.

Or limit the ammo one can carry to say, two pods and let the players use it as they wish.

There's some talk of doing this but as a team. So each team gets like 10 pods and they can distribute them as they wish. That said, it's mostly talk and I doubt it will go anywhere the professional circuit is pretty resistant to change. I think there was a few amateur circuits that tried it though. Helps keep paint costs down

I've been watching some paintball on youtube, and more than a few of those guys seem able to throw a tremendous stream of paint downrange on semi auto and ramped modes.

This is true. Part of paintball is it's a chess game. If I can keep shooting down one lane and prevent you from moving let's say to the snake, that means my guy can now move down the snake without resistance

It was my understanding that 15 to 18bps is about the limit for a marker for mechanical and reliablity reasons.

Hardly. I'm sure there's some markers this is true for but for the most part, of it's not a blowback you will need to get up into 20-25 maybe even 30bps before you will start seeing issues. A while ago dye released a video of a modified dm7 shooting 40bps

That said, I would imagine that the difference between 15 and 10bps is not of major practical importance if someone is going to be trying to throw as much paint as he can.

It kind of is actually. I think it was cocker punk who did some testing a number of years ago to try and see what BPS you could not run through. Basically he had a line up people sprinting to cross a stream of paint and they did a number of runs at different BPS. I don't remember the chances exactly but 15bps was almost impossible to go through, something like 1 in 10 chance. And 10bps was closer to 50/50

Exactly, with the modes, full auto is almost superfluous. I don't see how this significantly limits expending ammo with the ease that these guns will fire.

Because with the ramping modes you have to pull the trigger at a set BPS FIRST before it will kick into ramping. So maybe I only want to fire one shot here and there, I can do that on ramping whereas with full auto I'm pretty much throwing a string every time I pull the trigger.

I was going to ask about cheating and hacking boards, but you answered that one. I disagree with you that firing in a burst wastes ammo, esp if you manage to tag an opponent with one of the 3 balls. Compared to rapidly hitting the trigger, a 3 round burst is thrifty!

Ok, scenario, me and you are far apart on the field. I'm on semi or ramping, doesn't matter, you are on 3 round burst. Maybe we are close enough to shoot at each other? Idk let's check, I fire one shot, you fire 3. We now have the same information that we are in or out of range but you used 3x as much paint to find that out. We move, how's the wind? You need 3 shots to find out, I need one. We are now well within range but I am making sure you are keeping your head down so my buddy can move up. I'm firing one shot over your bunker here and there, not expecting them to hit you just to keep you down doing the same thing to me you are again using 3x as much.

You come around a corner, there's the birthday kid, 20 feet away, he is turning towards you. You blast him 3 times instead of 1.

Burst is stupid

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[Chappy]

[Deerslayer]

Burst is stupid

My background is shooting the National Match Course w/ a county pistol league, doing some practical pistol shooting at a club I've belonged to for years, and generally plinking around. I've used only what I would call conventional semi-autos, lightly modified w/o the expensive bells and whistles that so many PP guys use. I've never owned a selective fire weapon. That said, I know there are more than a few out there (firearms) that offer a burst mode. If the military deeems them valuable when your average soldier is carrying far fewer rounds than the 100 - 200 in one of up to half a dozen pods, then burst is not so stupid.

If you are playing with guns, pointing them at people and say your games are not modeled on war or the military you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

[MrBarraclough]

Of course paintball originated as being modeled on warfare. A glance at old Action Pursuit Games magazines from the 80s and even the 90s makes that obvious.

But there has been 40 years of evolution, especially from the mid-90s onwards when there was a concerted effort to develop paintball into more of a sport in its own right. Today, there are some branches of paintball that still hew more closely to its simulated warfare roots, but there are also others that have developed quite far away from that. Pretty much all competitive play has evolved far into the "sporty" direction and away from the old milsim style. There are various reasons for that, but that's a whole tangent about paintball history unto itself.

And paintball was never that great at simulating firearms combat in the first place anyway. The ranges are too short, the projectiles are nowhere near as precise, and the inability to shoot through barriers changes the optimal strategies. And most importantly, being a game rather than life or death greatly changes how one approaches engagements. Even in woodsball and scenario games, we engage with each other more than any sane combatant would choose to, and take risks that would be beyond crazy in a real world conflict with firearms. What is optimal in paintball is not necessarily optimal in combat, and the inverse is just as true. In actual combat, engagements are often brief, intense, and far between. Burst modes at least arguably make sense when you might have a split second window of opportunity to get rounds downrange, and engagements tend to be won or lost in a matter of seconds so the ammo consumption trade-off is worthwhile. The factors affecting the trade-off are simply different in paintball.

You can find all kinds of things that militaries deem useful in combat that just don't translate to paintball well. Roles differentiated by weapon characteristics comes to mind as an example. Firearms have a much wider range of design trade-offs between cyclic rate, stopping power, range, accuracy, weight, ability to sustain high volumes of fire, etc. Paintball markers just don't have much range of differentiation, comparatively. Two paintballs of the same mass fired at the same angle and same muzzle velocity will travel the same distance. There's only one type of ammo available (leaving aside FSRs for the moment), and max muzzle velocity is constant across all markers (by rule). So there really are no CQB markers versus DMR or "sniper" markers, despite what certain marketers would like us to think, and no SAWs.

[Chappy]

Paintball is about as modeled on war as playing guns was when I was 9 and we yelled bang and you counted to 20. We can carry a thousand rounds and shoot 20 balls a second so why do I carry 100 rounds and shoot a 10 round springfeed on an old blowback?
Come play before you make assumptions about what’s “better”

[Trbo323]

My background is shooting the National Match Course w/ a county pistol league, doing some practical pistol shooting at a club I've belonged to for years, and generally plinking around. I've used only what I would call conventional semi-autos, lightly modified w/o the expensive bells and whistles that so many PP guys use. I've never owned a selective fire weapon. That said, I know there are more than a few out there (firearms) that offer a burst mode. If the military deeems them valuable when your average soldier is carrying far fewer rounds than the 100 - 200 in one of up to half a dozen pods, then burst is not so stupid.

If you are playing with guns, pointing them at people and say your games are not modeled on war or the military you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

The real problem here is you have based assumption B on the premise that assumption A is correct when it's not. You are not the first person to think along the lines of "well the military does it so therefore it must work for paintball" and it just doesn't because the two worlds are so different.

My local roofer uses a nail GUN, should he wear camouflage?

The auto shop down the road uses a spray GUN to paint with, they should probably make sure they have encrypted comms as well

The last sports ball game I went to, they used a tee shirt CANNON to shoot AT PEOPLE, they should probably make sure it's mounted in a APC right? (I mean honestly, this example fits yours above word for word so therefore it must be modeled after war)

Ok, something more relevant, every 5 or so years a company will come into paintball and offer rifled barrels because they notice that pretty much nobody makes them. Trying to capitalize on a market that all these dumb paintballers haven't realized is there and are obviously using inferior barrels these companies are shocked to discover that they are basically only selling to a handful of ignorant new players. Most of the experienced players won't touch their barrels. This is because rifling for round paintballs doesn't work. It's quantifiably zero benefit and arguably worse. But the military does it so it must be better right? You can't spin an egg with rifling, it breaks and even if you did manage to spin it you would only spin the shell, the yolk would remain stationary and negate any spin that was achieved very quickly once out of the barrel.

Ramping works way better than burst, more control. If anything the military would love to use ramping but the only way to do that would be electronics in the guns and idk about you but having my gun crap out in some hell hole all because I can't get ahold of a 9v battery doesn't sound all that appealing. In paintball it's no big deal though

One of my friends from back in the day who was a military vet and paintballer I think put it best. This isn't word for word but pretty close

"If you could offer the military a firearm that weighed 2lbs, each soldier would carry 2000 rounds of ammunition for without becoming tied, would offer multiple unique fire modes and wouldn't have any range, accuracy or stopping power detriments over their current firearms they would switch overnight"

The problem is there are detriments both ways when trying to import anything military into paintball or the other way around. I've been playing for 20ish years now, the largest example I have of something that actually works for both military and paintball is basic communication.

So your office and relationships are now modeled after war as well


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[Deerslayer]

My local roofer uses a nail GUN, should he wear camouflage?

I worked in construction for more than 40 years. A lot of guys using nail guns - pneumatic and powder actuated wore camo. You should wear what is comfortable and provides the necessary protection for your activity.

The auto shop down the road uses a spray GUN to paint with, they should probably make sure they have encrypted comms as well

In fact, since the catalyst is so harmful, if he wants to communicate while wearing pos pressure PPE, he should.

The last sports ball game I went to, they used a tee shirt CANNON to shoot AT PEOPLE, they should probably make sure it's mounted in a APC right? (I mean honestly, this example fits yours above word for word so therefore it must be modeled after war).

You are being ridiculous. If people are engaging in a sport in which the object is to use a gun (spray, nail, paintball, airsoft, or cannon firing T shirts) and act like people do in war - trying to tag each other with projectiles fired from these devices - then the similarity to combat is unmistakable. You might not like the comparison, but saying paintball is not like combat (or laser tag is not like combat) is disingenuous.

a company will come into paintball and offer rifled barrels because they notice that pretty much nobody makes them.

I know all about the aerodynamics of spherical projectiles. No argument here. This is capitalism at it's best. See if you can hook the rubes into parting with their bucks.

Ramping works way better than burst, more control.

I won't argue that. It might. But don't tell me it is more efficient. Maybe ramping gives the shooter more control. Maybe not. The guys I've seen on youtube have anywhere from 3 to 6 pods and those hold from 100 to 200 balls. That's a lot of shots. Shooting 3 round bursts will not exhaust their ammo faster than ramping - its about control.

One of my friends from back in the day who was a military vet and paintballer I think put it best. This isn't word for word but pretty close

"If you could offer the military a firearm that weighed 2lbs, each soldier would carry 2000 rounds of ammunition for without becoming tied, would offer multiple unique fire modes and wouldn't have any range, accuracy or stopping power detriments over their current firearms they would switch overnight"

The problem is there are detriments both ways when trying to import anything military into paintball or the other way around. I've been playing for 20ish years now, the largest example I have of something that actually works for both military and paintball is basic communication.

There are a lot of reasons why things change slowly in the military, and politics and inertia are not the only factors.

[Trbo323]

You are being ridiculous. If people are engaging in a sport in which the object is to use a gun (spray, nail, paintball, airsoft, or cannon firing T shirts) and act like people do in war - trying to tag each other with projectiles fired from these devices - then the similarity to combat is unmistakable. You might not like the comparison, but saying paintball is not like combat (or laser tag is not like combat) is disingenuous.

It's not ridiculous, you just don't want someone applying your definition elsewhere. The tee shirt cannon actually fits the definition that you laid down. It's a projectile, being fired at people, out of some type of gun. So by your definition, it's also modeled after war. But now you want to say that's ridiculous. You are judging the book by it's cover not it's content.

I won't argue that. It might. But don't tell me it is more efficient. Maybe ramping gives the shooter more control. Maybe not. The guys I've seen on youtube have anywhere from 3 to 6 pods and those hold from 100 to 200 balls. That's a lot of shots. Shooting 3 round bursts will not exhaust their ammo faster than ramping - its about control.

You are trying to argue against math here. Burst modes waste paint, plain and simple.

2 players go out to the field, one on burst the other on ramping. They have the same exact amount of paint with them and do the same exact things. Yes when they are both laying out streams of paint they will be using it at the same rate. The difference is when they are choosing their shots carefully. Ramping kid is shooting one ball at a time because the mode allows it. He can hold the trigger back even but the marker will only fire once because he is not into the activation point yet. Burst kid however has to lose 3 balls for every one to accomplish the same thing. If they only do this 50 times in a game that means ramping kid is down 50 while burst kid is down 150. So now that ramping kid still has paint in his hopper and burst kid is out he simply walks up and plants one in burst kids chest

Still has 99 to work with

MAYBE burst kid has a marker that will stop shooting the burst if he releases the trigger but then you are counting on him to be able to release it fast enough to do that, he is not going to every time and ramping kid will still have more paint at the end

Look at it this way, if burst modes are so useful and better, why are they not on more markers? Do you really think the whole paintball industry just goes, "naw, we don't want something that works really well!" Or could it possibly be that they have tried it and found a better way?





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[Magmoormaster]

Before I get into the real topic at hand, I want to address the burst thing. Burst is, in fact, stupid. And the military agrees. Military weapons have largely moved away from it. It was originally implemented as an ammo saving tool, to prevent guys from just holding down the trigger. But they eventually stopped and now the standard issue rifle is semi and full auto, no burst. There is no advantage to burst than full auto and some trigger control.

As mentioned, in the early 2000s most electronic guns had semi, burst, full auto, as well as various others. I believe Tippmann and other woodsball/milsim companies are the only holdouts, and even then their full auto is a "safety" full auto. The industry at large deemed full auto to be a bit of a safety hazard, especially in the hands of newer players. Ramping makes you responsible for your shots. You have to keep pulling the trigger in order to keep firing. With full auto, it's easy/common for a new player to get startled (IE, when bunkered) to just hold down the trigger. This can't happen with ramping.

For an experienced player, an electro on ramping or even semi auto is functionally the same as full auto. But with that aforementioned safety precaution built in. And as mentioned, originally it was an anti cheating device.

Paintball started as a survival game; it evolved into a military simulation, and eventually out of it (at least mostly). I think most people at this point in time have realized that paintball is not great for milsim. Airsoft is better in that regard. The exagerrated tag comparison makes more sense. Thus, technology has moved on. We don't base our gear on military gear because of differences in the way they're used.

[Trbo323]

Hell here is a question, can you even get full auto any more? With or without the 3 shot safety?

I was thinking about it and since tippmann was bought out I don't think they are doing any e frames anymore. A quick look at ans I don't see any obvious anyway. I don't think azodin does, the only BT on ANS is the DFender, I'm not positive if it can or not but at $825 for the marker alone (good God why?) it's also not a realistic option for a lot of players.

I'm not even sure what aftermarket boards are left out there since most of that market is now dried up.

Edit: found it. The valken m17 (formally the milsig m17) can do mechanical full auto (no 3 shot burst setting or 3 shot safety) but there's a caviot, it's mag feed only so, 20 shots of full auto is all you get


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[Deerslayer]

Hell here is a question, can you even get full auto any more? With or without the 3 shot safety?

I looked at the Dye DSR+ manual on Dye's website. This is what they listed under modes:
FIRE MODE
(Factory Default Semi-Auto)
Choose between 4 different fire modes:
Semi-Auto: One trigger pull = one shot
Millennium/ NXL Ramp: Compliant with Millennium series rules
Burst: Compliant with PSP series rules
Full Auto: Continuous fire with trigger depressed after 3rd trigger pull

Max is 18bps

Of course this comes at a price....about $1000.