is it time to talk about a mixed tech league?

[SignOfZeta]

when setting up something like this, perfect is the enemy of good enough. ie, the less complicated, the better. keep it simple. as simple as possible.

1 pump (dont care what kind, just no SHOs)
2 mech (dont care what kind or why)
2 electro (no caps on anything)

everyone wants to make like a million more complicated rules, and maybe those are necessary fun down the line ... but to start, you keep it as simple as possible. as basic as possible. your "perfect" ruleset is the reason its not going to happen. good enough is all you need.

Indeed. In auto racing the classification rules are kept simple and non-specific with the assumption that the builder will do everything within those rules to end up with nearly the same potential as anyone else building to the limit of the same class.

Specifying brand names or specific engineering is usually in the appendix section clarifying hair splitting history of a successful series. When you’re just trying to get people to show up you don’t spec as many things.

When we say “stock”, assume it’s a really nice Phantom with freeqs and a super nice pump and not a Splatmaster. When we say “pump”, assume it’s a CCM with 250rd hopper and giant bottle and not a JT ER2.

I honestly wouldn’t bother to separate mech and electro since well done built to the max Automags can exceed tournament caps easily and it should be assumed that people will “bring it”, with the “it” being maxed out gear. With that clarified, now again consider:

2 stock
2 pump
1 semi/auto/whatever.

Two flags, so you have to move. You have one guy with unholy firepower but he can only be in one place at a time. He can’t run for the opposite flag while also covering everyone else and also camping. He is the “queen” in my version of the game. He’s more powerful than anyone but no Superman, he’s nearly useless on his own. How his power is used together with the peons and privates is where the strategy will be.

As little overlap in gun potential is key this would not only keep things interesting but great teamwork would be required to consistently win games. This can’t be five guys with different guns all acting on their own, it requires and rewards strategy.

[ChoSanJuan]

I guess that's what keeping it open is about. If I wanna go out there and rock a lesser known/accepted Nelson, I still have the option to do so... right? If 1 of the 2 mechs wants to opt in for a STBB, it's still a mech, so it's still legal within the confines of this proposed league. Hell, if that pumper wants to run an ER2 or class the joint up with a Peeg, why not?

[cockerpunk]

Indeed. In auto racing the classification rules are kept simple and non-specific with the assumption that the builder will do everything within those rules to end up with nearly the same potential as anyone else building to the limit of the same class.

Specifying brand names or specific engineering is usually in the appendix section clarifying hair splitting history of a successful series. When you’re just trying to get people to show up you don’t spec as many things.

When we say “stock”, assume it’s a really nice Phantom with freeqs and a super nice pump and not a Splatmaster. When we say “pump”, assume it’s a CCM with 250rd hopper and giant bottle and not a JT ER2.

I honestly wouldn’t bother to separate mech and electro since well done built to the max Automags can exceed tournament caps easily and it should be assumed that people will “bring it”, with the “it” being maxed out gear. With that clarified, now again consider:

2 stock
2 pump
1 semi/auto/whatever.

Two flags, so you have to move. You have one guy with unholy firepower but he can only be in one place at a time. He can’t run for the opposite flag while also covering everyone else and also camping. He is the “queen” in my version of the game. He’s more powerful than anyone but no Superman, he’s nearly useless on his own. How his power is used together with the peons and privates is where the strategy will be.

As little overlap in gun potential is key this would not only keep things interesting but great teamwork would be required to consistently win games. This can’t be five guys with different guns all acting on their own, it requires and rewards strategy.

its hard enough to find a pumper, never mind 2 stock classers.

file this one under some form of "perfect" that will kill the idea, rather than my "good enough" proposal.

[SignOfZeta]

its hard enough to find a pumper, never mind 2 stock classers.

file this one under some form of "perfect" that will kill the idea, rather than my "good enough" proposal.

The reason you can’t find any stockers *might* be that there is no place to play in the cannontown ghetto of paintball for them. This type of game is designed to make that place. If you want something it isn’t enough to design and build it you have make a hole in the universe for it to fall into. That’s what I’m proposing, a place for more styles of play than hiding behind a bunker. It doesn’t require a better world it makes a better world…a world where players with a PGP, a Carter, and…sorry, I cannot think of the name of a single electro gun…some cutting edge Planet Eclipse thing…can pull off an amazing win together. More NBA less NFL. More WRC less NHRA. More brass on your gun less paint on the trees. I’m talking about gaining players not losing them.

The reason most people are too chicken to go into a game with a stock class gun (even if they own one) is because they are afraid of the overwhelming firepower everyone else is running and they don’t think they can hit anyone in a center flag game that is really a total elimination game and they are basically right. This is about a different game because it’s time to stop letting speedball ruin the hobby. There are loads of people who aren’t playing the game we have now because of what it is.

[Trbo323]

2 stock
2 pump
1 semi/auto/whatever.

I agree with the above, this would never work. There's a reason most pump tournaments are 3 man and it's not because 3rd time's the charm. You would eliminate the possibility of a lot of the teams if you required 5 man teams

In order for that idea to work, let's say you have 6 teams, you need 24 pump players to show up

Heck I'm in the Portland area, it's basically the backyard for the phantom and the last mech game my local field put together had 4 stock class players

A local field just tried to hold a stock class event and it pretty much failed. They had to open it up to CA tanks just to get more people

How's this instead

1 electro, host field determines BPS cap OR limits #of pods electro player takes onto the field. This is just to prevent them from locking down half the field for the whole game

2mechs, no RT of any kind (limit to single triggers? I wouldn't want to rule out stuff like spyders and x frame mags so idk)

2 pump, open class, (no AT?)



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[cockerpunk]

The reason you can’t find any stockers *might* be that there is no place to play in the cannontown ghetto of paintball for them. This type of game is designed to make that place. If you want something it isn’t enough to design and build it you have make a hole in the universe for it to fall into. That’s what I’m proposing, a place for more styles of play than hiding behind a bunker. It doesn’t require a better world it makes a better world…a world where players with a PGP, a Carter, and…sorry, I cannot think of the name of a single electro gun…some cutting edge Planet Eclipse thing…can pull off an amazing win together. More NBA less NFL. More WRC less NHRA. More brass on your gun less paint on the trees. I’m talking about gaining players not losing them.

The reason most people are too chicken to go into a game with a stock class gun (even if they own one) is because they are afraid of the overwhelming firepower everyone else is running and they don’t think they can hit anyone in a center flag game that is really a total elimination game and they are basically right. This is about a different game because it’s time to stop letting speedball ruin the hobby. There are loads of people who aren’t playing the game we have now because of what it is.

none of this is correct.

i wish we lived in a world where finding 4 pump players per team, 2 of them being stock class existed .... but it doesnt.

finding one per team is going to be tough enough. perfect the enemy of good enough. if there is a healthy dose of pumpers, then you increase it later.

[Impactfour]

I think you can both be right, it just depends on where you live and what your local fields scene is like. There's more than a few stock class regulars at my local field, and dozens more when we all get together for events. The scenario 'team' I'm a part of has a couple of guys who play stock class and specifically try to take on recon/scout missions.

[Trbo323]

The reason you can't find any stockers *might* be that there is no place to play in the cannontown ghetto of paintball for them. This type of game is designed to make that place. If you want something it isn't enough to design and build it you have make a hole in the universe for it to fall into.

I'm with cockerpunk on this, your logic is flawed, you are putting the buggy in front of the horse.

You can't CREATE this format if there are no players from the start. You are talking about players getting into stock class play but let's say I create some different electro format in your area, are you going out to buy that new PE space dildo just so you can try it? I'm assuming no. Others are also saying the same thing and the format never starts because nobody is there to play from day 1.

But now let's say the format is already rolling because there's enough players in your area to start it, now I invite you out to play and I already have some marker for you to use, you play and like it, now going out to buy some new marker isn't a requirement for the format to start, only for it to grow.

If anything this format will be helping players get into mech and pump since that's 4/5ths of the team maybe not your exact flavor of pump but that's one step closer than they maybe were before deciding to give it a try.

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[JOESPUD27]

How would leaderboards work if this is going to be something that accessable to the average player? They won't be able to fly cross country to compete.

The way I'm thinking of it, it's literally grabbing random players at the local field and saying hey, come back on X day. We are running a mixed format game and you are invited

Seems like some people are thinking of this in terms of big league play but I think it really needs to start at the bottom instead.

If you try to start at the top, let's just say you magically have the money to set up and promote this, maybe not in nxl/psp levels but considerably. What manufacturer wants to sponsor teams? They can't fully equip the players. PE could give them electros and mechs but then they have to use a different companies pump, I'm sure there might be a few, empire comes to mind that could fully equip a team but not many

If you start at the bottom and let it grow it gives the manufacturers time to catch up and develop something if they want to sponsor a team by the time the league gets traction



So if I'm reading this right, and I'm just going to assume you are not like diehard psp fanboy since you are on mcb, but you don't want to change any rules, don't want to change any gear but somehow like the idea of something new....?

Why is everyone worried about the refs? They should be chronoing everyone before the match anyway so the gear will be in their face. It's not hard to go, yup, 1 electro, 2 mech, 2 pumps.

It's not like refs for any league will be perfect, that's a fantasy but I certainly don't see how its going to be some obstacle that somehow will ruin a whole league.

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I'm not a psp (it's the NXL again, fyi) fanboy. It's not a new concept, the UWL did something similar having pumps, rocket launchers, heavy gunners, and other equipment in place. It fell to the way side when those wishing to compete in that style moved on to the Classic Paintball/Mech 10man resurgence. I'm responding to the post that in general, those wanting to compete in tournament paintball, don't want to have to buy separate equipment and learn new rules. Thus, lower turnout. Also, refs make or break the event. It's a tournament, there will be cheating. Refs make jack and adding more rules and equipment limits to check make them work more for same. Refs are human, they get busy and usually aren't enough. Event starts to run behind and things get checked less.

Might not ruin a whole league (that doesn't exist) but it's not setup for success.

[cockerpunk]

what ended up happening to UWL? i can't seem to find anything on them post ~2017.

they tried to do a lot with that league, and it was kinda working, the mixed tech wasn the draw or reason to play IMO. the old school fields were.

[Trbo323]

I'm not a psp (it's the NXL again, fyi) fanboy. It's not a new concept, the UWL did something similar having pumps, rocket launchers, heavy gunners, and other equipment in place. It fell to the way side when those wishing to compete in that style moved on to the Classic Paintball/Mech 10man resurgence. I'm responding to the post that in general, those wanting to compete in tournament paintball, don't want to have to buy separate equipment and learn new rules.

Then why does your example above, of how this can't work, involve both teams buying equipment (most players don't have launchers laying around) and rule changes? (Launchers alone require their own ruleset)

The only change we are suggesting is how the teams are constructed, nobody HAS to go buy gear and that's the beauty of it. Basically if you are already a paintballer you can play, doesn't matter what you have as long as your team has the rest of the elements.

Also, refs make or break the event. It's a tournament, there will be cheating. Refs make jack and adding more rules and equipment limits to check make them work more for same. Refs are human, they get busy and usually aren't enough. Event starts to run behind and things get checked less.

Might not ruin a whole league (that doesn't exist) but it's not setup for success.

Again, you are hoping for change, or at least something new, without changing anything

I don't see why you are so stuck on the refs. We are talking about introducing this as a local field event not some national ranked system. So you are literally going to be using the fields refs anyway.

I have a field near me that already runs small tournaments, before checking to make sure there's no AT or RT before stuff even starts literally the only thing different we would be asking them to do is glance at each marker to make sure the counts are right as the teams come into the field.

If the refs/field is so incompetent that they can't handle something like that then does it really matter that there is a small change? They won't run a good event regardless of the format or rules

I'm with cockerpunk still, good is all you need. Perfect won't happen and is unrealistic to try for.

The way this is set up you can have a kid with a 98c, an ion and someone with a ccm, they can all play together and that's a pretty cool idea

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[ChoSanJuan]

I hate to say it, but this is why it's better to have a generalized pump class, rather than 2 pump, 2 stock. The level of entry would be easier if you had 2 pump (prob no pneu pumps), 2 mech (no eframes/rt), 1 electro.

[Trbo323]

Yeah I think much of the details would have to be left up to the host field. Maybe field A has a bunch of high end mechs so they decide that a tippmann with an RT is allowed but field B has a lot more entry level players so allowing any RT on the mechs would unbalance stuff too much

Maybe field X has a Chrono that won't measure BPS so instead they limit the pods of the electro players.

I think it's smart to leave stuff like that up to the host field to get things rolling. It's more important to have people come play than to stick to some super strict ruleset, especially when none of the teams starting out will be traveling

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[Brokeass_baller]

I can picture Marty Bush holding his Sniper II and laughing at y'all right now.

[Magmoormaster]

“You know you could actually shoot the splatmaster pretty fast if you put your fingers around the grip…”

[$L!mBo]

the initial format (specifically 5-man) laid out in cockerpunk 's first post is the most attractive proposal in here, for me. 1 pump (a/t fine, extra points for SC), 2 mechs and 2 electros with a center flag sounds amazing.
aside from all stock class games, the only other ruleset i would be 'all-in' on would be a "classic" mech league. 5/7/10 man hyperpipe games only cockers and mags, single trigger only, no r/t, revvys only. thats my time machine to the 90's pipe dream

[Brokeass_baller]

Man, I'm with you on that time machine.