Economics of Paintballs

[Magmoormaster]

Yeah, I prefer TWOHUNDREDFIFTYCAL

[iamthelazerviking]

What about .50 cal magfed airball?!

[Magmoormaster]

Yeeeah, magfed airball would be pretty close to the bottom of the list of options IMO.

I am rather familiar with paint costs on the store side, but I'm afraid I'm under some pretty strict NDAs and can't discuss them. What I can say is that, even a store that does rentals, repairs, and obviously traditional retail, paint sales make up a huge portion of a store's profit. Limited paint formats, be it stock class or magfed, is detrimental to stores or fields.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Xball / Mech is just fine the way it is. People like to shoot paint nobody in that form of paintball is driving players away. It’s when those players use that equipment to club seals in the woods. Time and a place. Tournament paintball is doing just fine at the rate of fire they play at. (ICC sold out in 10min during a pandemic.)

Don’t get me wrong I love limited paint play it’s the only kind of rec ball I play. But mag fed on the xball field. Good luck finding people to play that format. Those magfed guys do not like competition unless it’s who looks the most like there favorite Black Ops character.

Paint companies are in the business to make money. That’s why paintballs have gotten smaller and cheaper. They produce what the consumer buys. Cheap rental paint is is a fields bread and butter. Most rental payers would ever know the difference between premium and cheap white box other then the price to play. They are there for the experience. As a player progress they realize the value of better quality paint. But the majority of rec players are new players and couldn’t tell you the difference other then the color of the shell and a fancy box. Those people renting gear and buying paint with the highest mark up. It’s not the rate of fire that is the issue it’s the lack of respect for the sport and other players. Be it ignorance or purposeful incompetence.

Regardless I can guarantee Magfed is not the answer for tournament paintball. It’s fun I get it. But it’s more like Larping, then paintball.

[cellophane]

Hypothetically if all the speedball leagues were to go 100% magfed overnight (not gonna happen, but this is hypothetical) and everyone started playing that instead, would the number of companies that suddenly went out of business be so bad that the whole house of cards collapsed, or would things iron out ok? I figure with GI bankrupt (mostly through sheer apathy/incompetence, I'm not convinced this had to happen), what's there to lose?
...
- average cost to play at high level probably doesn't change that much on balance, depending whether you allow FS.
- tournaments get less stalematey and therefore slightly better to watch? Maybe. Paintball is one of the hardest sports on the planet to film well and nobody has cracked the formula there. But that's mostly a marketing question. Paintball being good to watch is mostly about selling more PB stuff, from an industry perspective.

The M-500 limited paint format (2 pods +hopper) that the Millennium Series used really helps with being able to watch a game and actually understand what is happening from the point of view of someone who knows nothing about the game. Quick anecdote: my parents were visiting, and I was flipping through YouTube for something to watch/background noise and saw an NXL event I had wanted to watch. Put it on, and then was trying to explain what was going on to my mom. It was mostly shooting lanes, an occasional move, and then suddenly the point was over. Kind of hard to explain the nuances and logistics when there isn't really anything to see. So I switched over to a Millennium match that was also listed, and suddenly she could understand what was going on because people were shooting, then moving, and it was obvious what was happening and why. My 0.02- if you (we?) want paintball in general, and specifically tournament level paintball to make it to a larger audience it needs to be:

1. Fun to watch (shooting lanes for 5 minutes is both boring to do and watch)
2. Easy to understand the basics of what is happening (player A moved here, shot that guy, then moved there)

IMO- this would actually help grow the sport, both from the standpoint of being able to televise it and from a player standpoint. From the outside in tournament paintball is super expensive. Travel, gear, and then 10-20 cases of paint per person (guesstimate of $600-$1200) is a lot. Being able to know that you will only shoot a maximum of X amount of paint no matter how much you play means costs are predictable, and if you hit the finals at least some of your costs are reimbursed. I was talking with a buddy who plays Semi/D2 and they are paying for almost everything out-of-pocket. Best case scenario the place first and their entry fee and paint is covered.

I updated the spreadsheet I linked above with this, so feel free to double check my calculations.
Assuming my math is correct: If you play 12 points per game, and play 12 games in an event, that is 36 cases if you shoot all 500 every point. In reality that is super high. Looking at NXL Vegas, the average number of points played across Pro, Semi, & D2 is 8.2, with 8 games played by the winners. That maths out to 16 cases of paint per person if you shoot all 500 for every point. If you shoot 100 per point, it is 3.2 cases.

bit of a tangent there... sorry?

[lew]

What I want to know is how bedded in the "sell moar paint, lol who cares if people stop playing" business model is. Like, in a perfect world I'd be playing magfed airball and so would the pros and punters - which in my opinion solves many of the problems with paintball as we know it, but is that even a business model that could work?

Your 'perfect world', but most people, myself included, do not enjoy playing like that.

[vijil]

What I want to know is how bedded in the "sell moar paint, lol who cares if people stop playing" business model is. Like, in a perfect world I'd be playing magfed airball and so would the pros and punters - which in my opinion solves many of the problems with paintball as we know it, but is that even a business model that could work?

Hypothetically if all the speedball leagues were to go 100% magfed overnight (not gonna happen, but this is hypothetical) and everyone started playing that instead, would the number of companies that suddenly went out of business be so bad that the whole house of cards collapsed, or would things iron out ok? I figure with GI bankrupt (mostly through sheer apathy/incompetence, I'm not convinced this had to happen), what's there to lose?

Things that would happen:
- paint prices go up
- less paint gets shot
- subsequently, paint quality and innovation probably goes up. Competition moves more to quality rather than price... depending on brand.
- average cost to play at high level probably doesn't change that much on balance, depending whether you allow FS.
- many existing players leave the sport (so what's new...)
- older players return to competitive play? Maybe. I would.
- tournaments get less stalematey and therefore slightly better to watch? Maybe. Paintball is one of the hardest sports on the planet to film well and nobody has cracked the formula there. But that's mostly a marketing question. Paintball being good to watch is mostly about selling more PB stuff, from an industry perspective. My take on the PB industry is that there are only about three vaguely competent marketing people worldwide, and none of them worked for GI.
- new players less put off by upfront cost, more new blood?
- new players more enticed by fortnite looking guns? Maybe.
- hoppers, pods, packs, many markers pretty much go obsolete. The industry hurts like crazy. Allow magfed adapters?
- a bunch of paint companies would go bankrupt or close to it in the short term.
- short term, overall industry profits would drop majorly. Long term, massive recovery?
- Or, and I think this is the case, it would be too little too late and the kids would just keep playing fortnite.

[latches109]

[cellophane]

Typical retail numbers: distributor markup can range from 5%-40%. I would assume fields have a similar range. My local field sells paint (most recently Empire Custom or 4-star) for about $65. I don't know the exact values but teams get pricing from $50-$35 / case, but have to buy 2+ cases at a time. They also have membership packages with similar pricing but I don't know the number of people that have it.

Assuming the $35 price still has some profit, the field is buying paint for at most about $32 / case. That means distributor is paying somewhere between $10 and $30 / case from the manufacturer. Throw in mfr markup, and a case of paint costs somewhere between $2 to $25 to make. I'm assuming shipping is part of the costs for this because I'm not that math savvy 🙄

Drive Spreadsheet if anyone wants to play with numbers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Feel free to fix errors or formatting. Setting these up is not my strong-suit... The orange field is the retail price of the paint, the rest should calculate automatically.

sources on markup values:

https://resources.pros.com/blog/distributor-pricing-profit-margins-pricing-markups

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/193986

and a generally interesting read: https://www.wired.com/2007/05/ff-paint-2/

[ATBen]

When I started going to big games in 2003ish, field paint was always a premium grade RP Scherer ball. They had a plant in Windsor Ontario, so it was common at most fields around me. It was $150 per case, then about 2004-2005 it went down to $120. I played on a promotional team later and got it for $60.

When I played outlaw ball, 2000ish, I got cases of PMI big ball for $80 including freight from Canadian Paintball, and later, $60 zap from Badlands.

Nowadays they shoot a lot of GI paint near me, and its anywhere from $60 to $80 at the field.

Taken from the G.I. insolvency documents:

"GI Canada is able to produce over four billion paintballs annually by using 22 soft-
gel encapsulation machines, nearly four times as many machines as its next closest
competitor."

Last I heard, an encapsulator costs $60,000 - $80,000. 8 of them have been converted to CBD oil production thus far as part of the agreement withe the Government of Canada to maintain jobs.

Paint seems like it'd be a money maker, but with shipping and shelf life im sure the margins are slim.

[punkncat]

Paint actually has a really decent shelf life if you store it properly and rotate it regularly. In my own opinion the largest contributor to paint "going bad" has to do with what weather it was made in/for and when it actually gets used. By and large (for instance) if I buy a load of paint in spring, I need to be through it before it get's really cold. On the converse if I buy paint in fall/winter I find it ends up being really hard come warmer weather. I have had paint store well for me for years. Usually what ends up happening long term is that oils start releasing from the paint itself and or separation.

Up till this year I would commonly buy ~10 cases of a higher quality paint than the field would carry much of. Myself and a couple of other players would put in as a rider on the main order and the discount was pretty steep. IIRC it was ~$28 for a case of 5* when purchased more than 10 at a time.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I use to buy paint in bulk for my team when we were competing nationally. I would buy good mid grade paint for $22 a case. (Store it, move it, rotate it) it was a pain in the butt but saved a lot of money over the season for the team. This was about 10 years ago at this point. I can still get graffiti at a super low price off the shelf but I have been buying paint from the same dealer for like 15 years. I sell a lot of product for them as well so I get a heavy discount (pretty much cost) if not super close to it.

There is a ton of work involved with buying paint in bulk. You need a good place to store it. You need to rotate the stock otherwise it will get flat spots. You need to move it to and from a field that will let you shoot it. For me I had an xball team so we shot threw it pretty quickly. But I still laid out a lot of cash for an entire season to save $15-$20 a case. I charged $8 a case for my time and cost to move it. It was not worth it cost wise. We just played x2 as many games that season. It was some of the best paint I ever shot and we won some events shooting it. But I took good care of it and picked it up right from the factory. I think I have a picture of my F250 packed full of cases squatting a bunch.

[Mr. Hick]

You can get a good gist of whats going on right here. At the very least it can give you understanding of the manufacturing scope.

[MrKittyCatMeowFace]

The problem with bulk is paint has a shelf life. If it goes bad you are out however many cases you have left

The best deals typically tend to be when someone at the shop/field is friends with someone at the paint supplier

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

Yeah storage of paint long term is a challenge for a field

[Trbo323]

Wondered this too. With companies like defy making good paint for as low as $35 a case, wonder if fields could make more profit buying this stuff in bulk.

The problem with bulk is paint has a shelf life. If it goes bad you are out however many cases you have left

The best deals typically tend to be when someone at the shop/field is friends with someone at the paint supplier

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk