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The Trracer-Spacer

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    The Trracer-Spacer

    A question I'm commonly asked is if I can Freak-bore a Trracer barrel. (The older PMI Trracer, not the later Empire one.)

    Unfortunately, the answer is no, and here's why: On the Trracer barrel, right at the base of the threads, it's only 0.757" in diameter.



    And "Freak" boring usually takes the bore out to around 0.747" to .750".



    That would leave the barrel walls literally paper-thin, and way too fragile to actually use.

    So what are our options? The old standbys, of course, of a strip of tape, a few dots of fingernail polish, etc. But what else? Bore the body out to take 'Cocker barrels? That's possible, but the bigger barrels won't fit through the pump grip. If you're going to pay to have the body bored, and replace the pump, you might as well just buy a Phantom or something.

    One idea that came up in the Freaking the Unfreakable thread, was a Trracer-Traccer adapter, like the LAPCO sizers, that has a tighter bore. I was loaned a Trracer a few months back, and finally worked my way down the list and had a chance to give it a quick try today.

    It is, of course, a fairly simple turning operation, with the only trick being that, as designed, the root of the thread is actually below the OD of the breech. 🙄



    But apart from that, it didn't take long before I had the first Trracer-Spacer!



    Which, of course, works like any other barrel adapter or sizer:





    You technically don't even need to take the snap-ring off the barrel, since that's actually a forward stop to keep the pump bolts from beating on the front edges of the slots. That's moved forward by the spacer, and so no longer really does its job, but also doesn't interfere with the pump motion.

    I made this one .675", but oddly enough, I don't actually have any paint that small. The last I had, when I cracked open the case- fresh, unopened bags- had fused into a square lump, and I had to toss out the case. Most of what I have on hand is in the .685" range.

    Regardless, it's a bore adapter, not a rocket engine.

    Now, here's the question: I can make these, of course, but to what bore? .680? .675? .670?

    One option is I can make a set of three in that ballpark- but that starts making the set kind of expensive. This is already a project I suspect there's limited interest in, and by the time I get them machined and annoed and all that, I can easily see needing to price a set in the $90 range. I could also sell them separately, but I can also see getting stuck with one or the other sizes after the 'popular' one sells out.

    A second option is to make the adapter, but with something like 'Wedgits" built in. Although the idea there is if we can apply Wedgits- another project I'm working on- why not just Wedgit the original barrel?

    A third option is I could make a batch all at .670 or so, and not anno them, so if you want one a bit bigger, I can simply bore it to order. Less cost on the anno, but also more cost on the extra work.

    Thoughts? Comments? Options? Spare change? Spare change, lady? [rattles cup]

    Doc.
    Last edited by DocsMachine; 07-01-2024, 10:53 PM.
    Doc's Machine & Airsmith Services: Creating the Strange and Wonderful since 1998!
    The Whiteboard: Daily, occasionally paintball-related webcomic mayhem!
    Paintball in the Movies!

    #2
    My lapco “kit” is a 684 barrel with 680 and 676 sizers. Those three would probably work well

    Comment


      #3
      things change when you go from a full freak to a short sizer - like wedgits your can squeeze the ball pretty good.i cut and use a 1" section of .679 freak insert in my carter comp and it works for all but the smallest paint, and keeps the accuracy, even with the bigger paint. my money would be on a .682 and a .677with the .677 being the 90% of the time leave it in and forget it. it is pretty niche, but makes a formerly un-usable gun usable and I think you will get rid of a short run in short order.

      Comment


      • $L!mBo

        $L!mBo

        commented
        Editing a comment
        wow! never considered cutting down freak inserts to use in carters but man! so obvious!

      • Drcemento
        Drcemento commented
        Editing a comment
        yeah - it came with some brass ones, but when I put some calipers on them they were all basically the same size... figured out a freak had the same OD and got out my pipe cutter! I did have to put bit of super glue to make sure they stayed in, but its not impossible to get them out. liek I said the .677 works 90% of the time.

      #4
      I have a couple Trracers a machinist cut cocker threads into and he just bored out the factory pumps to 1 inch ID to fix the clearance problem. I also got one in that lot that didn’t have a pump but I found the handle from a junk $10 Tigershark fit it perfectly. The real drawback is the cocker threads don’t leave enough metal to not have to worry about destroying it if you take a spill. This definitely fixes that problem.

      My question though is how much more work is it to just make a cocker threaded body than a full kit of these adapters? Could just take Spyder or similar vertical feednecks to keep it as simple a part as possible

      Comment


      • Jonnydread

        Jonnydread

        commented
        Editing a comment
        I believe someone made a run of cocker threaded trracers a few years back.

      #5
      In my local paint experience it will need to be .675 at largest to be useful. If you were to only make one size I'd make it tight.

      Also one sizer for $30 to make my Trracer rock and roll is worth it.
      Velcor will save us...

      Current MCB Feedback : https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/b...opusx-feedback
      Legacy MCB Feedback (Wayback Machine)

      Comment


        #6
        This is a hard question. What to do about rollouts on a Trracer…

        The easy answer is tape or nailpolish. This works perfectly, costs less than a penny, can be done to any barrel, and has no real downside. It isn’t a solution that involves a lathe though so obviously its no good but any solution involving a lathe doubles the cost of the Trracer.

        What to do what to do…how to live the ethic but still get the job done and under budget…real machining exceeds the original budget (and perhaps logic) and the easy way out is for wimps. It’s unsolvable. I guess the only solution is to get another gun. Group think doesn’t allow for simpler less popular solutions.

        In all seriousness…some people think playing paintball fundamentally involves barrel sizers, freaks, XL freaks, etc etc and some people have never once used them and still play the game with stock barrels every time. When it comes to a gun that was only $115 new I think it’s best just to leave it to the people it was made for. Poor kids who aren’t too proud will just put the tape in there and be happy. It’s for them.

        Comment


        • Chappy

          Chappy

          commented
          Editing a comment
          Good for you, you really laid out there why you don’t bother with this. But why exactly did you bother posting? You didn’t answer any questions or help with any useful information, you just shared your very, very narrow view. You spread a lot of negativity, you should consider that.

        #7
        Originally posted by SignOfZeta View Post
        This is a hard question. What to do about rollouts on a Trracer…

        The easy answer is tape or nailpolish. This works perfectly, costs less than a penny, can be done to any barrel, and has no real downside. It isn’t a solution that involves a lathe though so obviously its no good but any solution involving a lathe doubles the cost of the Trracer.

        What to do what to do…how to live the ethic but still get the job done and under budget…real machining exceeds the original budget (and perhaps logic) and the easy way out is for wimps. It’s unsolvable. I guess the only solution is to get another gun. Group think doesn’t allow for simpler less popular solutions.

        In all seriousness…some people think playing paintball fundamentally involves barrel sizers, freaks, XL freaks, etc etc and some people have never once used them and still play the game with stock barrels every time. When it comes to a gun that was only $115 new I think it’s best just to leave it to the people it was made for. Poor kids who aren’t too proud will just put the tape in there and be happy. It’s for them.
        How many Trracers do you even see at the field anymore? At this point we're so removed from the cheap gun for a budget player that I doubt any of the buyers for these sizers are still "Poor kids who aren't too proud" too put tape in the barrel.
        Originally posted by Terry A. Davis
        God said 640x480 16 color was a covenant like circumcision.

        Comment


          #8
          I had detent fingers in mine and they worked great, I think that's when freeddummy was making them for alot of different guns

          Comment


            #9
            These markers were designed when paint was usually over .690. With paint getting so small. Do these markers have any issues with roll back or stack clipping? .

            Comment


            • glaman5266

              glaman5266

              commented
              Editing a comment
              Not in my experience. You can always adjust your pump stroke to compensate. I don’t use my Trracer much, but I’ve never had issues like that.

              It’s not like running a force-feed loader on a 20yo Spyder. 😉

            #10
            I had 2 barrels sent in to Palmers Pursuit Shop(PPS) to install wedgits, an original Trracer barrel and an Allen Paintball Products(APP) rifled barrel.

            Palmers(PPS) installed the 3 wedgits in a triangular orientation as to evenly apply pressure to the paintball as opposed to a single point applied by a ball detent.

            The wedgits on the APP barrel is difficult to see due to the bare aluminum. Comparing the depth of the wedgits, the original Trracer barrel's wedgits is more pronounced than the APP barrel's wedgits. This might be due to the APP barrel being .685 bore diameter, the original Trracer barrel's bore diameter I am unsure of.

            Unfortunately, I am unable to confirm the smallest paintball diameter that the wedgits could successfully prevent rollouts.

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            More pictures of the original Trracer barrel compared to a wedgited one.

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            My opinion would be to create Trracer-Spacers in .670 and bore them to the desired size of the customer.

            Comment


              #11
              i know staunchy makes trracer to cocker adapters that act as a sizer, but your design allows for use of the stock pump handle which I think is cool.
              💀 PK x Ragnastock 💀

              Comment


                #12
                Originally posted by RAZRBAKK View Post

                How many Trracers do you even see at the field anymore? At this point we're so removed from the cheap gun for a budget player that I doubt any of the buyers for these sizers are still "Poor kids who aren't too proud" too put tape in the barrel.
                The last time I saw I Trracer at a field I was using it. It’s mine since new. My methods work perfectly.

                You’re right though in that these days Trracers aren’t budget daily guns anymore. They are often wall hangers for mounting an ever evolving pile of 3D printed crap to and post pictures of. Maybe they could be leveled up to the point where hand turned $100 parts actually make sense but I don’t see why on earth anyone would want to do that to a gun with a plastic trigger.

                What’s so contemptible about cheap fixes that work perfectly? The point of design and engineering is to make stuff better, not just more complex and expensive. If you make one sizer for $100 you’re still going to have rollouts from out of round paint. If you use tape or nail polish you won’t. Sizers are fine for $2000 guns but if you can only afford one I’m at a loss as to how it’s not a worse more expensive solution than “tape”, a single roll of which could probably fix the rollouts on every Trracer still functioning.

                Doc says he has doubts about the viability of this part. I’m saying I agree. He doesn’t need to be talked into making a part that won’t sell. That’s kind of positivity isn’t helpful.

                Comment


                  #13
                  Originally posted by SignOfZeta View Post

                  The last time I saw I Trracer at a field I was using it. It’s mine since new. My methods work perfectly.

                  You’re right though in that these days Trracers aren’t budget daily guns anymore. They are often wall hangers for mounting an ever evolving pile of 3D printed crap to and post pictures of. Maybe they could be leveled up to the point where hand turned $100 parts actually make sense but I don’t see why on earth anyone would want to do that to a gun with a plastic trigger.

                  What’s so contemptible about cheap fixes that work perfectly? The point of design and engineering is to make stuff better, not just more complex and expensive. If you make one sizer for $100 you’re still going to have rollouts from out of round paint. If you use tape or nail polish you won’t. Sizers are fine for $2000 guns but if you can only afford one I’m at a loss as to how it’s not a worse more expensive solution than “tape”, a single roll of which could probably fix the rollouts on every Trracer still functioning.

                  Doc says he has doubts about the viability of this part. I’m saying I agree. He doesn’t need to be talked into making a part that won’t sell. That’s kind of positivity isn’t helpful.
                  I certainly agree that there is nothing wrong with cheap fixes, I have an NW Spitfire with tape in the barrel and it works perfectly fine. I do think your stance on 3D printed parts is a little sanctimonious since those are often some of the best cheap fixes. A barrel sizer is hardly making a Trracer more complex, and at $30 a pop it really isn't much more expensive. Nobody is saying don't put tape in the barrel, but in my experience, tape and nail polish aren't a perfect fix either. Many times I've sabot'd the tape down the barrel, or put a little too much nail polish for the size of paint at the field that day, resulting in either rollouts or breaks. Can the tape be replaced, and the nail polish reapplied? Of course, but that's now downtime at the field. A barrel sizer would arguably be more consistent in that situation.

                  I also have a Trracer with a $100 hand turned part on it that dramatically improved it and I designed and created 3D printed parts for it to solve other issues. It's an ever-evolving project. Franky, it's just nice to have options.

                  I don't see where Doc says he has doubts about the viability of this part, I just see him addressing a common request. For all of the Trracer users that want to put tape in the barrel and play, they are more than welcome to. It's been suggested 42069 times on each iteration of MCB.

                  In support of Docs idea, I'd like to see a wedgit version of the insert, as that would eliminate the need for multiple inserts. But what I'd really like to see is a SignofZeta post that doesn't instantly seek out negatives of a topic under the guise of pragmatism.
                  Originally posted by Terry A. Davis
                  God said 640x480 16 color was a covenant like circumcision.

                  Comment


                    #14
                    Hmmm....

                    Questions; does the piece have to be anodized? From looking at it the "Trracer Spacer" is covered up by the pump handle. Could a less "pretty" finish that you could do in-house be substituted since its not a visible part during use? What would not needing to have it anno'ed do to your production process/options for producing the thing?

                    Another idea that occurs is making this thing somehow compatible with Nova Paintball's inserts for their N-series (since they're shorter) but I am not sure how many cans of worms that would open up, design-wise.

                    It's cool to see someone trying to make Trracers viable again, gotta say. The first paintgun I ever used was a Trracer rental, it came with a 100-round hopper and a 7 oz. C02 tank.

                    Comment


                    • Toestr
                      Toestr commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I don't think the Nova inserts would be viable for the same reason as freak boring; the wall would be too thin.

                    • Drunkscriblerian
                      Drunkscriblerian commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Toestr I was thinking you could make the sizer compatible with the Nova inserts and then screw the stock barrel into that (so Doc only had to make one piece), but now that I think about it further you'd have to also modify the pump handle because the sizer would end up being too thick...and at that point you're right back into the place Doc's trying to avoid.

                      Ah well, it was an idea.

                    • DocsMachine

                      DocsMachine

                      commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Yeah, that's the issue. I thought of something like the old OTP inserts too- I'm not sure what the Nova ones look like- but again, everything just gets too damn thin.

                      Doc.

                    #15
                    Thought about this a bit more over my morning coffee...

                    It seems like the problem Doc is running into regarding making the Trracer Spacer a financially viable product is threefold;

                    -The thin material on the Trracer's factory barrel
                    -The tight tolerances on the pump handle/barrel interaction
                    -The inconsistent sizing on modern paint (which leads to the necessity of multiple sizes of insert)

                    The only solution I could come up with; make the Spacer compatible with Nova-style inserts and either A: offer up reaming out the pump handle as a service or B: sell the Spacer as-is and make sure to inform the customer that they'll have to do their own washing when it comes to solving the pump-handle problem (either drilling out the factory one or fabricating a new one).

                    I think this could potentially have a place in the market. For one, the crossover between users who own a Nova and users who would want to run a vintage pump is fairly high. I've handled and shot an N1, and the feel of them is very "old-school". I think Nova's idea was to market to older players who want that vintage feel but also want a gun with modern performance made by a company that didn't go out of business 20 years ago. Guys like that are the sort of people who also might have a Trracer from back in the day and would want to run it, even if only for the nostalgia. Guys like that are also the sort likely to be "handy" enough to solve the pump-handle problem on their own - which by itself isn't that complicated. I mean really, to paraphrase Doc..."It's a pump handle, not a rocket engine".

                    Anyhow, there's my spare change for your cup, I hope it helps.

                    Comment


                    • RAZRBAKK

                      RAZRBAKK

                      commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Pretty quickly that's getting into the, "might as well buy a phantom" price range. Cost of mailing stuff to Alaska and back, time on the machine to widen the pump handle. Personally I think the best option is a .680 sizer with wedgits, as that will solve the issue for 90% of people, but Docs original idea seems to meet the demand as well.
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