Data that disproves the "I can hit 15bps in true semi" argument

[SR_matt]

So as we all know we see this argument all the time of people trying to claim they can hit unrealistic numbers without bounce... well I got tired of it and did some digging on the old interwebz and came across some applicable data... because yes I am that much of a nerd:

Here is a study that actually looked at how fast people can tap their fingers https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_the_Effects_ of_Various_Factors (if you click download it will let you get to the full study without a sign up).

The fastest 5 second block was seen in males 18-29. The best numbers were by left handed individuals by a notable margin. Their dominate index finger clicked 30.3 (+/- 2.4) and middle was 28.8 (+/-2.3). So 59.1 clicks between the two over 5 seconds was 11.82 clicks per second. And this was the best block they achieved in their testing.

Right handed individuals were slower with females 18-29 having the best numbers at 27.5(+/-3.6) for index and 26.7(+/-3.1), resulting in 54.2 clicks over 5 seconds or 10.84 cps.

Sure you may find some outliers in the population but the data shows that your 15+ bps is not actually happening and is not maintainable as this data is the best block the participants got.

Enjoy, and use as you need

[JeeperCreeper]

I can shoot 16bps with my single shot pistol 😆

[flyweightnate]

Ergonomics are important - the study was the home row of a keyboard versus a trigger frame. It also ran a full minute, which is a LONG time to be hammering away full speed.

A crappy 2008-era website told me I hit 18 clicks per second using two fingers on my mouse. I'm sure that was research grade data.

[SR_matt]

To be fair probably the same micro switch in the mouse as the triggers so the ROF with bounce was probably accurate haha

and yeah that study is a bit long of a time period but they took the best 5 second run (which I assume is more likely to be at the start of the run). I suspect that the keyboard test actually probably gives people a bit higher rate too than what may be achievable with a marker just due to the position and ergonomics of it all.

[Psycho91]

I remember that, used to play it all the time

[DocsMachine]

I recall an article, roughly a million years ago, that described one of the major tournament promoters, in an attempt to quantify just how fast the then-new electronic guns were shooting, brought a PACT shooting timer to an event. This was the earliest days of things like the Angel, 'shoebox' Shocker and Intimidator, though I don't recall if 'cheater boards' were really out yet. (Save of course for the SP "Turbo" boards.)

As I vaguely recall, the fastest player was a fellow with an Angel- I think this was before the LCD came out- who I believe hit 14 BPS, but the vast majority of other players were hard pressed to do 10-12. And none could sustain the max for long. (I seem to recall the 14/sec guy being described as looking like he was having a seizure in the attempt. )

I will admit that, from a purely gearhead-related point of view, I got a kick out of the ROF wars. It was fascinating to see just how fast we could get a marker to cycle- with the fastest I ever saw being a super-slo-mo video of a DYE gun and Rotor hitting right at 40 BPS.

But from an actual player point of view, I had a sinking feeling even back then that it was going to wind up toxic for the sport.

Doc.

[Fossilhead]

On my best day, 6 maybe 7.

[Jonnydread]

FWIW I have never been a very fast shooter, as a primarily front player "fast enough" was all I really cared about. Something odd I've noticed on my rare forays into electro play is that I am significantly faster with my left hand, though I am quite right dominant. Maybe something about power vs. precision?

[Frmrspec]

A crappy 2008-era website told me I hit 18 clicks per second using two fingers on my mouse. I'm sure that was research grade data.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that partook in that website... I'm sure the link was floating around all the paintball forums of the time.

[SR_matt]

I recall an article, roughly a million years ago, that described one of the major tournament promoters, in an attempt to quantify just how fast the then-new electronic guns were shooting, brought a PACT shooting timer to an event. This was the earliest days of things like the Angel, 'shoebox' Shocker and Intimidator, though I don't recall if 'cheater boards' were really out yet. (Save of course for the SP "Turbo" boards.)

As I vaguely recall, the fastest player was a fellow with an Angel- I think this was before the LCD came out- who I believe hit 14 BPS, but the vast majority of other players were hard pressed to do 10-12. And none could sustain the max for long. (I seem to recall the 14/sec guy being described as looking like he was having a seizure in the attempt. )

I will admit that, from a purely gearhead-related point of view, I got a kick out of the ROF wars. It was fascinating to see just how fast we could get a marker to cycle- with the fastest I ever saw being a super-slo-mo video of a DYE gun and Rotor hitting right at 40 BPS.

But from an actual player point of view, I had a sinking feeling even back then that it was going to wind up toxic for the sport.

Doc.

yeah I took a long hiatus (2009-2023) and when I came back I saw that dye shot with the rotor and some dye marker... granted I believe they had to basically force the board to shoot as fast as possible once the ball was far enough into the breach to not chop.

Back in the 2000s I remember the big video floating around what the mag hooked directly to a 3k scuba tank with a q-loader and the mag still managed to over shoot the q loader and activate level 10 if I remember right.

One guy I met at the field has a bit of a conspiracy theory that the 10.5bps cap is actually there to get people to shoot more paint. While I am not sure if I believe that there is some organized conspiracy taking this into account I think the result he sees is probably accurate. the higher ROF days made people choose shots better and we saw a lot more real snap shooting. Now it's just find a bunker and "lane". less movement, a lot more "suppressing" now.

[SR_matt]

FWIW I have never been a very fast shooter, as a primarily front player "fast enough" was all I really cared about. Something odd I've noticed on my rare forays into electro play is that I am significantly faster with my left hand, though I am quite right dominant. Maybe something about power vs. precision?

Ever play a string instrument? I know my left has is also faster but I grew up playing multiple string instruments so I assume that has at least some of it (but that was 14 years of pretty much daily practice with those muscles to get a minimal increase).

[Jonnydread]

No sir, no real common practices or hobbies that would have trained me that I can think of.

[Psycho91]

I can hold 10 consistently but nothing over that and that's the fastest I can shoot, I also hold and shoot a PB marker better left handed but I'm right hand dominate

[MrBarraclough]

And to think, back in the early to mid 90s it was widely believed that Tim "Sandman" Glavin clocking just over 9 bps with a stock Automag was pushing the limits of human ability to repeatedly pull a trigger quickly.

To be fair, pulling a stock, classic Automag trigger at 9 bps without short stroking is indeed a nontrivial feat.

[SR_matt]

and then the lord created the RT on/off.

Granted good chance he was still running co2 on that mag too so freezing was just as much of an issue as chuffing haha, then again HPA was introduced in 91 so maybe he was on HPA by then.

[MrBarraclough]

He was using CO2. Using a 7oz bottle with this big downward loop of steel braid between the ASA and valve body as a kind of crude anti-siphon/expansion system.

The demonstration was a kind of bonus clip at the end of the VHS tape instruction video that came with new mags back then.

[SR_matt]

Hahaha nice, I’m still disappointed that mags were not widely used in my area until the mid 2000s when one guy got a Tac one and then we all followed suit with different mags of our own.

[flyweightnate]

In the interest of science... 10.6 on a mouse with two fingers, and 8.8 on a space bar with two fingers.

Unsurprisingly, I am average, according to that study.

[Trbo323]

Right handed my cocker registers 13bps

Left. Like 10 maybe

This is all without air, so very little marker/frame movement

But this is also with some practice. I'm assuming the study above was not done with years of practice and it also looks like they separated index and middle fingers rather than counting them at the same time

It's a little misleading to label it as "as fast as humans can go" without allowing for the test subjects to really practice for a long time. Clearly some paintballers are able to hit faster speeds. I have no doubt some players can hit 15 if I can hit 13 with minimal practice

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[SR_matt]

Right handed my cocker registers 13bps

Left. Like 10 maybe

This is all without air, so very little marker/frame movement

But this is also with some practice. I'm assuming the study above was not done with years of practice and it also looks like they separated index and middle fingers rather than counting them at the same time

It's a little misleading to label it as "as fast as humans can go" without allowing for the test subjects to really practice for a long time. Clearly some paintballers are able to hit faster speeds. I have no doubt some players can hit 15 if I can hit 13 with minimal practice

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To be fair though, a large portion of the younger side of this study likely was typing on keyboards for 20+ years and had typing classes ins school to learn to type as fast as possible so probably pretty justifiable to say that they had plenty of practice.

[Trbo323]

Looks at a keyboard…looks at a gun…nope! You're missing the point. Just because someone can run 100m faster than anyone that doesn't mean they are already as good as they can be at running 1000m. There are few things that don't improve with practice and keyboards and guns use the hand in very different ways.

Max finger speed for typing isn't even relevant since when typing it's about tracking and micro planing where the next few keys are going to be in a sequence of 1000s of presses of 100 different keys. A gun is the same trigger over and over and over with the same few fingers on just one hand, max speed, no steering. It's not a very technical skill but it is a skill and people do get better with practice…not practice with a TV remote or a Sega Genesis or just any thing with any kind of button but with a gun.

Yeah I have to agree with this, typing is pattern recognition not pure speed and you are also using the tips of your fingers to push rather than the pads to pull. It's very different movements so making a leap to, "all markers above x bps must have bounce because people pushing a keyboard can't manage it" is along the lines of saying cars can never accelerate faster than semi trucks because they both have tires.

Just because they are both forms of electronic buttons doesn't mean everything else is equal

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