Innovation in paintball

**DocsMachine** · 10-20-2024, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by KMDPB

I'd love to see other propellants other than hpa.

-Other than compressed air? I'd be curious to know what that could be. Tippmann tried a combustible fuel- and had it worked, it would have been a game-changer. A camp-stove sized tank was supposed to provide something like 50,000 shots! But, it also generates heat and moisture when it burns, two things the paintball really doesn't like, and so is a nonstarter right at the beginning.

The only other things I can think of would be a motorized piston arrangement like an airsoft- also already tried with the... what was it, the E-Volt? Which went over like a lead salami.

Any other compressed gas will be far more expensive to use and source, any other combustible fuel will be more difficult to use, more expensive, and as was rumored around the C3, risking BATF oversight.

A new brass, nelson valve pump to come to market.

-Sadly unlikely. Brass these days is fabulously expensive, compared to aluminum, and there's barely enough market out there for our what, two pump manufacturers to trickle guns into the market?

Somebody could get away with a "limited edition" sort of thing, but it'd be a marker four or five times the cost of a production unit.

All I want is a better ball

-That's a quality and economic issue, not an 'innovation' one.

Unless you come up with a new way of molding a ball so it has no seam, or perhaps a more distributed seam, like on a baseball or soccer ball. And, of course, still keep the price-per-ball about the same.

Do we need innovation?

-We're going to get it whether we like it or not.

Somebody will always be tweaking or tinkering with the gear. Heck, there's guys out there right now, fiddling with old Commodore 64s and Macintoshes just 'cause they can. And I've been rather surprised of late that no less than two companies have brought out significant upgrades to Autococker valves.

Thing is, at this point it's unlikely we'll see any major changes- there just isn't enough money in the sport to drive significant R&D. So the 'innovations' we'll see, for the foreseeable future, will be incremental- the aforementioned valves, minor tweaks to the Gamma Core style 'engines', minor streamlining to loaders, etc.

We need to innovate more people to the field.

-This. That's the key right there. The sport-in-general (players, supporters, manufacturers, etc.) needs to work on ways to entice more people into playing. New game styles, new field layouts, new promotionals, more advertising, whatever.

After all, the quality and accuracy of the gear doesn't matter if there's no one to use it.

Doc.

**vijil** · 10-20-2024, 05:04 PM

The paintball industry is completely stagnant. Here are some of the ideas I've had over the years:

1. Power the marker from the air supply. Instead of trying to run the gun on batteries without air, flip it - the bolt is moving back and forward enough and fast enough to act as a linear faraday style generator like this, which could be enough to power the electronics in most markers *without any extra moving parts*. You'd sacrifice a little air efficiency in exchange for not ever needing batteries, but still being able to run eyes and modes etc. It would be amazing for magfed.

What's stopping this? There's a chance it wouldn't generate enough power - but I haven't done the math. Possibility of the magnets messing too much with circuits. RnD cost vs market cap. Also nobody seems to have thought of it. PE patented a way to power the marker using a turbine in the air supply. Talk about doing it the stoopid way.

1b. We've got batteries in the hopper *and* the marker. This adds weight and complexity. Better to power the hopper through the marker via feedneck contacts, especially if you're using lithium rechargeable. Would make a big difference to weight and maneuverability. If you combine it with #1, you can imagine how much weight that deals with. It also lets the marker control the hopper directly rather than needing eyes or rf or mics or circuits in the hopper. The best part is no part. The marker would still work with other hoppers.

What's stopping this? Firstly I don't think many people have thought of it, but secondly it's the usual issue with RnD cost vs market cap. Most of the time risky innovations like this just aren't worth the effort.

2. In magfed - an instant loader table mounted box thing. Shove the mag in, bzzt, done. Ideally it would take less than 2 seconds start to finish. The loading box would handle winding the spring and sensing when it's done. I have a few drawings around. It deals with the #1 pain point of magfed which is tediously loading mags. I had designs for one that auto-aligns and loads FS too, you just pour them in the top and it handles the rest.

What's stopping this? RnD/risk of it not working vs market size. Usual issue.

3. In terms of format, xball is completely lame. I played it and coached for a few years and I'm convinced it's just a rubbish game. TDM will never work. We've hashed out loads of ideas here, but the main thing for me is to get rid of ramping and high BPS and move to something like magfed markers for speedball tournaments. I don't think mech goes far enough, and pump is too awkward. Pump with AT is just awkward mech and doesn't help. Magfed works for a bunch of reasons. I've written a lot about formats.

What's stopping this? Vested interest in maximising paint sales, and anyone smart isn't going to dump money into a new format like that. I wouldn't.

If paintball was still growing there would be huge innovation and the sport would be massively better/different by now. The fact innovation has stagnated is because PB is on life support, not because we've reached some kind of engineering peak. We're nowhere close.

**Refoogee** · 10-20-2024, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Chappy

We need to innovate more people to the field.

Agreed. The only innovation necessary is to get people playing. Paintball needs to to deeply reflect on why it fails, where other activities succeed. Make some actual efforts to address the problems.

I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. I mean, MCB is really reflective of that. It's one of the most active paintball spaces on the internet currently, and it's pretty much dedicated to paintball nostalgia. The sport is, all the news people get excited over is from the past. The Nova being the thing to make the biggest splash in a while is a good example.

I don't know how old the average player is anymore, but it's continuously creeping up. Nothing will likely happen until the average player is too young to have played before 2008.

**gabe** · 10-21-2024, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by vijil

The paintball industry is completely stagnant.

I couldn't disagree more. Every time I step away from paintball then get back into it there have been radical changes in equipment. Of course we're not talking laser guns vs paintballs but things like quick release eye covers, quick release grips, quick release bolts, quick release EVERYTHING have become common. It's exciting to see complex electronic guns that we used to spend half the day working on with tiny allen keys become toolless to work on and very simple drivetrains. Even ergonomics have come to the forefront and now we have guns being built not around how small they can be but around the most ergonomically efficient grip layouts.

To be very honest there isn't a whole lot that you can change to make a paintball fly at 300fps at this point except make the guns more reliable, more ergonomic, and more efficient and I think we are getting there. The real development is in loaders and secondarily tanks as hoppers get lighter and more reliable and tanks just get lighter. It's a game of small percentages of change at this point, not the massive leaps being made in the early 2000's that many compare the current era to.

Honestly the biggest place the game needs to improve is in business strategies for fields. The old strategy of running things on a shoestring budget and only making money on paint sales have driven the cost of play way up with paint prices and at the same time squeezed profit margins for fields to the point that it's just not worth it to be in the business of paintball anymore. I'm not sure what the ideal field operating plan is but I'd imagine we need some governing body that can franchise things like insurance, bunker replacements, and rental equipment to get costs down and have packages field owners can buy to get set up in the first place. More fields = more players and more players = growing the industry.

**Frmrspec** · 10-21-2024, 12:36 PM

The innovation that needs to happen IS happening.. it’s not in some great leap in the highest end equipment.. it’s the leaps being taken in the cheapest equipment… trickle down technology takes time but the emek is doing the work being a game changer and probably the greatest innovation to sustain the sport… the initial cost of paintball is by far the greatest barrier of entry… previously you could get setup for relatively cheap.. little Johnny or Debbie could get a birthday package for 200 and go play… BUT we all know that the package little Johnny or Debbie got would leave much to be desired, and the next step up to allow them to feel competitive used to be 500-600-700+…. But the emek changes all that(to some extent the Enmy started the trend but had an unreliable regulator)…. I think time will allow the sport to recover… as people grow tired of video games, they will remember the rush of real life action…. At least until the next leap in gaming happens (VR? Augmented reality?)..

the reality is we are a expensive niche and such a small community will ebb and flow with times.. anybody else remember when BMX had all but flatlined? Inline skating? Skateboarding? Etc.. none of those had people gathering asking what great technological leap needs to happen to grow popularity… they got out in the community and showed how fun it could be.

**Jonnydread** · 10-21-2024, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by vijil

I don't think mech goes far enough, and pump is too awkward. Pump with AT is just awkward mech and doesn't help.

Agreed on the AT pump = awkward mech part, but not sure about pump in general being too awkward. I would argue that most magfed setups are more awkward to run and have a steeper learning curve, especially for those just starting out. If we really want to alienate people we just gotta make 'em use magfed PUMPS

**gabe** · 10-21-2024, 01:17 PM

The different game types like mech, pump, stock, etc only work if there are enough players showing up to host games of each specific type. With exception of some pockets of activity that just isn't happening right now. We need to get player counts back up before discussion around format can happen.

**The Hobbit** · 10-21-2024, 01:44 PM

I like gabe idea of some sort of trade organization to streamline field ownership. Something that allows someone to go “I want to open a field, what do I need and where do I get it?” If there is someway to make a 1 stop shop to get insurance, a basic field package ( rentals, maybe bunkers) as well as a basic template on for how to run the field.
If there aren’t fields to play at, there’s no way to grow the playing population.

there is room enough in paintball for the NXL style of play, pump, mech, magfed, etc to exist side by side. Auto sports is an example of many differing styles of participation under a common umbrella.

I don’t know how a field owner can do it without pissing off existing players. But I’m sure there is a formula that can work and allow people to succeed at ownership. Hopefully without relying on paint sales almost exclusively for profit.

Now an emek, tank, hopper, mask package for 200-250 dollars would also probably help a ton. Decent stuff for someone wanting to own their own, with no frills to save cost. Let them then tailor the equipment past that as they like.

**vijil** · 10-21-2024, 01:56 PM

Every time I step away from paintball then get back into it there have been radical changes in equipment. Of course we're not talking laser guns vs paintballs but things like quick release eye covers, quick release grips, quick release bolts, quick release EVERYTHING

All of this innovation happened about a decade ago, and practically nothing since. We're stagnant.

The innovation that needs to happen IS happening..

To be very honest there isn't a whole lot that you can change to make a paintball fly at 300fps

Nah. Very linear thinking.

none of those had people gathering asking what great technological leap needs to happen to grow popularity… they got out in the community and showed how fun it could be.

Not really true. Massive marketing investments were a big part of this along with fundamentally more accessible sports you can do anywhere, something nobody in their right mind would do with paintball. The whole "just bring a friend and post on socials thing" has not worked and will not work for paintball. We've been trying this for ages. It didn't work. Paintball is not analogous to skating and bmx at all. We're much closer to hockey or football.

We need to get player counts back up before discussion around format can happen.

Cart before horse. If you ran a restaurant that served dog turds you don't say "We need to get customer counts back up before the discussion about food can happen". The format IS the product. If the format sucks, everything else you can do is just polishing a turd.

I'm not sure what the ideal field operating plan is but I'd imagine we need some governing body that can franchise things like insurance, bunker replacements, and rental equipment to get costs down and have packages field owners can buy to get set up in the first place.

It's a good idea, and there have been many attempts.

The problem is the product. As long as the business model revolves around paint margins, paintball will remain small.

**JonM** · 10-21-2024, 02:18 PM

Innovation is not dead. All I need to do to see innovation in practice is to open my gear bag. On any given day, I have three mainstays in my bag -- a Bob Long Autococker, a ULE X-Mag, and a heavily upgraded Emek. There's nearly thirty years separating these markers from oldest to newest. The pure simplicity, performance, reliability, weight, and consistency of modern day spool valve markers makes my classic mechs look almost archaic. The technological differences I see when comparing them side by side is staggering. So much so that the only reasons to even air up my Cocker and Mag are for nostalgia and variety. We didn't get here overnight though. The progress I see from the oldest to newest is the end result of years of incremental changes. I have no doubt that this trend will continue for as long as there are enough players to sustain the game. As to what the next big thing will be? I'm not so sure we're going to see a massive leap in technology so much as we will a continued steady progression of incremental improvements to existing tech. Personally, I'd love to see the next innovation come with the paint. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, but inconsistent sizing and quality has been the biggest hurdle since the game was created. If that problem could be addressed and at a sustainable cost, then the game as a whole would benefit.

**DocsMachine** · 10-21-2024, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by vijil

The problem is the product.

-No one wants to admit it, but that's the key, right there.

Regardless of how the game is played (X-Ball, woodsball, Airball, pump, room-to-room, etc.) you're dealing with a game that's messy and painful. A player leaves the field covered with welts, bruises and globs of colored goo.

It really is as simple as that.

Yes, it's fun, the bruising is generally minimal, and a little care can minimize errant paint. We've all been dealing with that for years. But the simple fact is, not everybody likes that THWAP! and the resulting several-day sore-spot.

20 years ago, Paintball was one of a comparatively few options for entertainment- and one of the only ways you could shoot your buddy and get away with it.

But today, we have too much competition- yeah, streaming TV isn't as adrenaline-boosting as paintball, but it also doesn't give you a tazer-zap when you do something wrong, either.

Online gaming comes close to the same thrill, with no pain, no real physical effort, a lot cheaper and no cleanup. A good game these days can have sales of ten million the day it releases- we're lucky to see half that many players in a year.

Now, we can't really change that one aspect- the paintball will always sting when it hits, and will always leave behind a mark- that's kind of the point. To change that would be like playing baseball without a ball, or hockey without the puck.

So what we need to do is make the rest of the experience better. How do we do that?

Doc.

**JonM** · 10-21-2024, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by DocsMachine

So what we need to do is make the rest of the experience better. How do we do that?.

Honestly, the best way to do that is probably to get away from the same old tired formats of elimination and capture the flag we see today. If paintball is going to see any substantial growth, it needs to become a new experience that will get people excited again. Hyperball started the speedball format in 1996 and the core game itself has remained relatively unchanged ever since. Nearly every rec field is built around some semblance of the old and proven speedball format, whether it be with inflatables, pallets, wire spools, tires, or any combination of whatever materials field owners can piece together to create a field layout. This continues to be the norm because it's an affordable method to build a field that also promotes paint sales. For us, it's great. It's the game we know and love. However, if paintball is going to compete with newer forms of entertainment, the game itself needs to evolve. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm thinking this is why airsoft is kicking our asses right now. It has a lot more in common with things like modern video games than paintball does. In that way, it's more exciting and relatable to the younger generations. There still needs to be a place for us old fogies who like paintball the way it is, but there also needs to be that wow factor to draw in new players.

**Grendel** · 10-21-2024, 04:24 PM

Innovation that would change the sport/game for the better? A better paintball that is consistent in size, weight and shape. It really is that simple but hard at the same time. We have or have had already everything else needed for the game but the one thing lacking is a good reliable and consistent paint to use.

Now this opinion is very biased because I actually like to play the game of paintball. The equipment used to play is way less important to me. If paintballs were "fixed" I would spend way more time playing and spending money.

**gabe** · 10-21-2024, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by vijil

Cart before horse. If you ran a restaurant that served dog turds you don't say "We need to get customer counts back up before the discussion about food can happen". The format IS the product. If the format sucks, everything else you can do is just polishing a turd.

Lot to unpack but I don't see any positive comments, just that your overall impression of paintball is that it all sucks. Where exactly are you thinking paintball guns can advance? They're about as efficient, cheap, and easy to use as they can possibly be at this point.

IMO it all comes down to price. You look at when paintball player turnout decreases and it's always been during harder economic times. You're a parent and you want to drop your kid off for a day at the field? That'll be $100. Guns and gear are the cheap part relatively speaking but each day is $70-80 for paint and probably $20 for field fee.

Paint quality is certainly a part of that perceived quality but we're being compared to other sports and nothing comes close. Even golf is cheaper per day. It could be said that airsoft is more fun because it's what paintball tried and failed to be but I think in reality it's because you can get 5000 bb's for the cost of a bag of paint and you don't need to buy air at the field. Makes for a much cheaper game. Yes, you still walk away with welts but airsoft is surpassing paintball just due to cost.

Anyway, that's my .02 on where we can advance as a sport. Get the cost down and people will come back. The guns and gear don't really need anything at this point.

**Magmoormaster** · 10-22-2024, 02:21 PM

I shouldn't be surprised but this conversation has gone in a very different direction than I was expecting.

The people who play are, unfortunately, the wrong market.

I think this cuts at the heart of the issue. If anything, paintball isn't nearly expensive enough. If you compare to other tech-driven hobbies, like racing, skiing, real steel, etc, paintball is actually pretty cheap. And I thnk that hurts it more than helps. Paintball should focus on a higher end clientele than a cheaper one. It should be a premium product, not a race to the bottom.

It is a chicken and egg situation; fields need to be way nicer than they are. They need to be cleaner, have nicer furniture, bunkers not made of crap materials. But to do so you need a good chunk of money. And you can't do that with the current market. But you can't get those high end clients without better fields.

I agree that we need better paint (although I specifically said in the OP that's not really the point of this discussion), but even moreso we need better fields. There is good paint out there. Fields just need to go after it. Unfortunately fields are incentivised to stick with crap paint. At least here in Arizona, people will drive 2 hours from Phoenix, past 3 fields, to go to BKW, which is apparently just a really really nice field. I'm hoping to go myself in the next couple weeks.

Regarding gameplay styles, I'd look at airsoft by comparison. Airsoft has several advantages over paintball; it is cheaper (I can play for $20-30 at any field near me), and it's cleaner with less hassle. Obviously a huge component of airsoft is the milsim aspect that paintball can never replicate. But at the same time, you know what is drawing people to airsoft in droves right now? Speedsoft, which is just airsoft on a speedball field. Regardless of what y'all seem to think, that type of gameplay is waht people want. They want the fast paced adrenaline you can only get from that style of play. Admittedly, the competitve speedsoft leagues do have ammo caps, and require each team to have a certain number of pistol players, and they're smi-only with no double triggers. Regardless, speedball always seems to be the pinnacle style of play. It helps that it makes fields the most money, but at the end of the day it's also waht people want to play. The speedball fields are always the most popular field at the fields I've been to.

I've said in the past that we could probably do better at catering to the "experience" crowd, or the axe throwing/escape room crowd. Indoor, dark field with glow in the dark paint, cool fields with inventive settings. 50cal would be ideal in this setting. But that can only go so far. You won't get many serious players out of that. And at a certain point, laser tag or airsoft might be the better game for that type of experience.

So I circle back; what does paintball do better than the alternative games? For me it still goes back to speedball. We can make some changes that would improve speedball, no doubt. We can take a nod from speedsoft and require glow in the dark paint, which makes it much easier to spectate. But I really don't think imposing loadout requirements or ammo caps would improve things. They've been tried before and were universally panned. And while mech has had some success, it's not like it's taken over. Every year my team tried to play NXL Vegas in the mech division, we'd be one of 3-4 teams tops.

So yeah... if we're going to step back from gear and look at what the industry needs as a whole (which was not the point of this thread but hey this is MCB I should have expected this), we need better fields first and foremost. But that's not really innovative.

Innovation in paintball

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