Innovation in paintball

[Refoogee]

I think this cuts at the heart of the issue. If anything, paintball isn't nearly expensive enough. If you compare to other tech-driven hobbies, like racing, skiing, real steel, etc, paintball is actually pretty cheap. And I thnk that hurts it more than helps. Paintball should focus on a higher end clientele than a cheaper one. It should be a premium product, not a race to the bottom.

It is a chicken and egg situation; fields need to be way nicer than they are. They need to be cleaner, have nicer furniture, bunkers not made of crap materials. But to do so you need a good chunk of money. And you can't do that with the current market. But you can't get those high end clients without better fields.

Totally agree. This is one of those things airsoft does way better, and something I've heard ex paintball players complain about with paintball, is cool fields. Paintball fields are lazy, and it's because the entire field has an easy revenue solution: paint sales. As long as people come to play, they'll buy paint. All fields care about is designing fields, and game modes, around players having to shoot the most paint. The staging areas can be card tables, the snacks at the vendor can be upcharged school cafeteria food, and the field can look like a literal junkyard, and it doesn't matter as much.

Contrast that with airsoft, where you don't get your money back from just ammo sales. If you want enough players to come back to make your money, you need to offer a better experience than running around at the dump.

Regarding gameplay styles, I'd look at airsoft by comparison. Airsoft has several advantages over paintball; it is cheaper (I can play for $20-30 at any field near me), and it's cleaner with less hassle. Obviously a huge component of airsoft is the milsim aspect that paintball can never replicate. But at the same time, you know what is drawing people to airsoft in droves right now? Speedsoft, which is just airsoft on a speedball field. Regardless of what y'all seem to think, that type of gameplay is waht people want. They want the fast paced adrenaline you can only get from that style of play. Admittedly, the competitve speedsoft leagues do have ammo caps, and require each team to have a certain number of pistol players, and they're smi-only with no double triggers. Regardless, speedball always seems to be the pinnacle style of play. It helps that it makes fields the most money, but at the end of the day it's also waht people want to play. The speedball fields are always the most popular field at the fields I've been to.

Highly disagree. The way I see it, airsoft is right where paintball was just about 30 years ago. The big difference is that paintball was always a game first, airsoft has lived, and died, by the "Operator" fantasy experience since day 1. If you go onto any airsoft spaces online, there's a massive subsect of that community that despises anything speedsoft. And this is because a lot of airsoft players are there to primarily LARP. They're not playing a game, they're organizing a fashion show, and playing pretend, in a way that just happens to have some rules. It's unlike paintball that is, and always was, a game, before any milsim elements were ever added in. But, there's still a ruleset going on under the surface, so players who want to win will inevitably go down that route.

Here's how it happens, the rules are simple. 1 shot, one out. There's no recoil. Everyone can fire at the same rate. Everyone is shooting the same round. Those rounds are, generally (I know airsoft does their own thing here, but it's kind of moot) exiting the "gun" at around the same velocity. Well, this is a simple game to figure out: If I can shoot a bunch more at you, than you can shoot at me, I have the advantage. No amount of skill will smooth over that advantage over time, I have way more opportunities to fail than you have to succeed.

So, it makes sense that's the "competitive" style that will be born in a vacuum. That's the game competitively minded players will play. What's the problem with that? You end up creating a game that is massively disconnected from the game the average players came to play. Each degree of separation you get away from the core player audience, the more degrees of alienation that core audience will have. The less likely they'll be to tune in to the competitive scene, the more likely they'll be to have bad experiences in mixed player environments, etc. Of course attempts to impose certain limits on comp players goes over badly, it's making them play a different game. You're smoothing over their skill sets they've trained.

Now, I doubt airsoft will ever focus on the competitive aspect of the game over its core audience. Even with glow rounds, the game is substantially harder to keep clean. I can't imagine a solution that would not require some pretty advanced tech if speedsoft ever took off the same way speedball did circa the early to mid 2ks. Way too much room for biased judging, and player/coach disputes. If it did, and the industry went full speedsoft, the trajectory of the game would go down the exact same road paintball did. The arguments are the same they were decades ago.

I have no idea where you're from, but speedball is completely dead in my neck of the woods. Of all the fields in my state, I can count the number with a speedball field with less than one hand. If they have a speedball field, it is just that :1 speedball field. Every other field is a joint outdoor woodsball/airsoft place. I'll admit to possibly being biased by location.

[Ecapnation]

Coming in late.....

Innovation cost development money. Sadly this industry thinks that research and development is something passed on to the consumer for version one of something and they will adjust according to the complaints and shortcomings in version 2.

The state of paintball is so poor right now that GI sportz let go of the guy who turned JT into the hype product it currently is.

[tyronejk]

Re: high-end clientele in paintball
I don't think the market is there. The high-end clientele is older but paintball is messy and physically taxing, so I don't think the appeal is there, even with nicer fields.

[flyweightnate]

So here's a thought.

Paintball fields degrade QUICKLY into a slime- covered mess. It's probably one of the main disadvantages compared to airsoft, from a field owner perspective. It's slippery, it looks gross, and it makes it challenging to maintain a "high end" vibe except with airball bunkers that are regularly washed.

Would a "field" paint that focuses less on being wipe-proof and more on rapid UV breakdown and extreme water solubility be worth it? I thought there's been work in that direction, but I don't see it. For someone with a nice field, it could stay that way longer. If people care about cheating/ wiping, IDK, add glitter.

[flyweightnate]

I'm listening...

Get me the same size and energy and ballistics, and some sort of "marking", and I think it would be a significant improvement. It would probably be rounder and more accurate, too.

[Magmoormaster]

Could have sworn I responded but must have clicked away before hitting "post"

I've never shot a gel blaster, but based on the concept I can't imagine they'd be more accurate than a regualr paintball. You have to soak them, and they get soft and squishy. Doing a quick search on youtube and it looks similar to shooting thru a break.

[flyweightnate]

Hmm, maybe shell with a gel fill?

[Magmoormaster]

Totally agree. This is one of those things airsoft does way better, and something I've heard ex paintball players complain about with paintball, is cool fields. Paintball fields are lazy, and it's because the entire field has an easy revenue solution: paint sales. As long as people come to play, they'll buy paint. All fields care about is designing fields, and game modes, around players having to shoot the most paint. The staging areas can be card tables, the snacks at the vendor can be upcharged school cafeteria food, and the field can look like a literal junkyard, and it doesn't matter as much.

Contrast that with airsoft, where you don't get your money back from just ammo sales. If you want enough players to come back to make your money, you need to offer a better experience than running around at the dump.

Precisely. Airsoft certainly has the advantage of less mess, which helps them get into some really cool places to play, like abandoned WW2 forts and stuff. No way paintball can compete with that. But like you said, fields are basically junkyards half the time. The industry needs to do better.

Highly disagree. The way I see it, airsoft is right where paintball was just about 30 years ago. The big difference is that paintball was always a game first, airsoft has lived, and died, by the "Operator" fantasy experience since day 1. If you go onto any airsoft spaces online, there's a massive subsect of that community that despises anything speedsoft. And this is because a lot of airsoft players are there to primarily LARP. They're not playing a game, they're organizing a fashion show, and playing pretend, in a way that just happens to have some rules. It's unlike paintball that is, and always was, a game, before any milsim elements were ever added in. But, there's still a ruleset going on under the surface, so players who want to win will inevitably go down that route.
That is true, there si a vocal group winthin airsoft that thinks speedsoft is ruining the game. That's not unlike what people were saying about speedball even 10 years ago. And frankly they're wrong. Speedsoft (same with speedball) is responsible for the biggest advances in technology, It brings in a lot of new players that want nothing to do with the milsim aspect of airsoft, but see the other advantages the game offers.

Here's how it happens, the rules are simple. 1 shot, one out. There's no recoil. Everyone can fire at the same rate. Everyone is shooting the same round. Those rounds are, generally (I know airsoft does their own thing here, but it's kind of moot) exiting the "gun" at around the same velocity. Well, this is a simple game to figure out: If I can shoot a bunch more at you, than you can shoot at me, I have the advantage. No amount of skill will smooth over that advantage over time, I have way more opportunities to fail than you have to succeed.
That's highly reductive and nonsensical. Speedball is not a game of "if I shoot more paint I win." It is not uncommon for competitive players in any division to take the field with 3 pods. I've won games by shooting less than a hopper. Skilled players will use high ROF to their advantage, yes. But not to the extent where "no amount of skill will smooth over that advantage."

So, it makes sense that's the "competitive" style that will be born in a vacuum. That's the game competitively minded players will play. What's the problem with that? You end up creating a game that is massively disconnected from the game the average players came to play. Each degree of separation you get away from the core player audience, the more degrees of alienation that core audience will have. The less likely they'll be to tune in to the competitive scene, the more likely they'll be to have bad experiences in mixed player environments, etc. Of course attempts to impose certain limits on comp players goes over badly, it's making them play a different game. You're smoothing over their skill sets they've trained.
No, attempts to impose certain limits goes over badly because players know it makes the game worse, not better. No one threw a fit when ROF caps were first instituted, or steadily got lower. And look at mech. It's having a resurgence, yes. But it's mostly a nostalgia trip, not something most players find genuinely better. If they did, mech divisions at NXL events would be much more popular. It would have completely taken over the sport. But it hasn't, and you can't argue it hasn't had enough time.

Now, I doubt airsoft will ever focus on the competitive aspect of the game over its core audience. Even with glow rounds, the game is substantially harder to keep clean. I can't imagine a solution that would not require some pretty advanced tech if speedsoft ever took off the same way speedball did circa the early to mid 2ks. Way too much room for biased judging, and player/coach disputes. If it did, and the industry went full speedsoft, the trajectory of the game would go down the exact same road paintball did. The arguments are the same they were decades ago.
Yes, but tha'ts kind of the point I'm making. People want that style of play, and in fairness airsot offers some unique aspects to competitive play that paintball just can't. The reffing is somewhat of a problem, but again msot players within that community argue they just have a shortage of refs. I'd also argue gear is a major setback. If I wanted to play speedball competitively, I can get a Mini GS, or a DYE CZR, or many other options for $300.There really aren't entry level speedsoft options available. You're starting at $1000, and even then the guns are pretty janky.

I feel like you're making my point for me here. Tournament play is the ONLY place where paintball wins over the alternate games. Have you guys ever actually played pump tournaments? I have, and they're kinda lame by comparison. Magfed is just a slightly different take on the same idea.

I have no idea where you're from, but speedball is completely dead in my neck of the woods. Of all the fields in my state, I can count the number with a speedball field with less than one hand. If they have a speedball field, it is just that :1 speedball field. Every other field is a joint outdoor woodsball/airsoft place. I'll admit to possibly being biased by location.

I just moved away from Utah, where I lived for 14 years. There are a coupe of outlaw woods fields, 1 rec/rental field, and 2 speedball fields. I just moved to Arizona, and here in Phoenix there's a rec field, an indoor field I don't really hear much about, and a big speedball field. The big speedball field is the most active. There was a second big speedball field that was also very popular, but it closed a month or so ago due to a developer buying their land. Supposedly they're reopening elsewhere. We'll see if that happens. Down in Tucson (~2 hours South), there are 2 fields within 10 minutes of each other, both with very active speedball fields. There's a rec field on the other side of town, about an hour away. Granted, woodsball in Arizona is not exactly a thing. But even in Utah, where there are woodsball fields, speedball is still more popular. Again, if you want that kind of experience (woodsball), airsoft is going to do it better. If you want magfed, airsoft will do it better. If you want milsim, airsoft will do it better. If you want no mess, less pain, lower price, obviously airsoft. So let's stop trying to compete where we're going to lose, and focus on what paintball succeeds at.


.......this topic has gone so far off the rails and has devolved into the ever-so-typical and always-tiring "speedball bad" nonsense. It's the one thing I hate about MCB. THe point of this topic was to talk about what cool new tech we'd like to see, not how speedball is killing the sport. We have a million other threads for that.

[Refoogee]

You never did specify what needs to be innovated on, to be fair.

I'm just gonna say though, it's typically what these discussions boil down to for a reason. It's your thread, so I can concede your points if it's not the road you want to go down.

[vijil]

Well, it's not entirely off topic. What innovation you think is necessary will be determined by what you think paintball should be.

I think speedball needs to die

- an opinion formed after years of coaching and playing on tournament teams including travelling teams,
and after running rec fields
and after years more recently of working in marketing and business strategy

- so I'm going to think of innovation in that light.

That said I still don't see why hoppers need batteries

[flyweightnate]

Shake n bake! Like those crazy flashlights from the "as seen on TV" stores.

[vijil]

Exactly that.

If you're using it once a year or less, shake the gun a few times if you have to to get it started. 5 shakes would probably be enough, no charging needed. But if you're using the gun regularly this will never come up.

Lithium batteries are generally shipped (and can be installed) with a stable long term 40% charge so no issue there.

You're nitpicking though - these are non-issues. So you ship it with a USB C socket if necessary for people to plug in their own cable if they really want to for diagnostics or updates or whatever, and it would top off while you're at it. No big deal.

[Magmoormaster]

I agree, it's not a real issue. I'm just saying ship it with a charger (or at least a port) and you're golden.

[Magmoormaster]

hmmmmmmmmm apparently the 50 cal Tippmann TMC can hold 50ish rounds. EDIT: now I'm seeing only 25, which is nowhere near enough. 40-50 rounds would be basically required if this was going to work, IMO. EDIT AGAIN: nevermind, I figured out how to do it.

That's interesting.

So maybe you basically do a speedsoft type format, but with paintball.

Indoor, turf or bare concrete. Airball bunkers, most likely, just for ease of cleaning. Open to ideas there. Small fields, 100ftx50ft. Five player teams, maybe 1-2 of them are pistol only. One of them is the heavy gunner, they get a box mag. Still semi only, single trigger kind of thing. But 50cal guns, EMF100 type thing (I know they don't make a 50cal EMF100, just roll with me). 50 rounds per mag, 5 mags (4+1 in gun) per player. I imagine a 50cal pistol can hold 20ish rounds, just looking at the math. None of the stupid m4 mag adapters though. I think that would limit the firepower enough that *ahem* y'all would be happy, but would still be fun. Not to mention would allow for the more dynamic play styles speedsoft allows for.

But unlike speedsoft, you get the ineffable benefits of paintball; higher adrenaline, more fun, and easy to ref.

That said, stick to the speedsoft trend of having less realistic guns and more bright colors. Make them wacky and cartoony, but with ergonomic features like drop stocks or bottomline setups. Add glow in the dark rounds (UV lights in the mags?) to get that watchability.

And then you can take that setup out of the competitive side and put them into more conceptual fields, with fun sci fi, video game, or cartoon settings. Could do general rec play as well, with the benefit of smaller fields. I think 50cal zoom dots exist, right? You'd probably need something like that to open up bigger fields.

I'll concede that an experience like that could do very well. By focusing away from milsim, it could tap into a whole new market. And you still get the more fun that is paintball compared to airsoft.

Re: cleaning, I think the big hurdle would be paint on the ground. bare concrete would probably get slippery. Turf could work; do a sort of false floor so when you spray off the bunkers and turf the water can flow thru the turf and into french drains underneath. I'd want to make it somewhat cushy though. That would be the trick. In addition to the whole, you know, needing a bunch of new gun products that don't exist.

[vijil]

You're very close to my thoughts. Only difference is I think more work needs to be done on format because TDM is lame. I'd go with something like this: https://kiwigat.blogspot.com/2019/02...to-try-at.html

[Magmoormaster]

Yeah, for rentals you probably would want lo-cap hoppers. Or box mags, if they can be made to work ok. If you can get the rounds to glow long enough/bright enough using UV lights in the eye holes, that would be awesome. I agree that with 50cal, the 13ci metal tanks should be more than enough, not to mention light weight.

[Magmoormaster]

I'm not so sure about the different formats, but I'd be willing to try them. One of the speedsoft leagues (can't remember if it's NSL or SpeedQB) uses an attack/defend format, and it seems overly complicated and dumb. I'm the type of player to ignore objectives. I'm there to shoot people. So any sort of objective needs to be integrated into the game so thoroughly that i can't be ignored. The ncie thing about the current NXL format is that the "objective" is basically just TDM, with the buzzer being largely a formality. That said, it is not unheard of for a player to score before the other team is eliminated, or for the surviving team to not hit the buzzer and let the clock run out. In a game that is primarily about shooting people, I find objectives to be a waste of time.

Not fully on topic, but I do think you'll want at least some contingent of the current player base to come along, if for no other reason than it will increase the skill base. The airsoft skill base is pretty sad, even at the competitive level.

I also think it would be very important to do what PE has done with the EMek and EMF100; offer CAD files for custom bodies. Since guns are getting more standardized internally, players should have more options for external customization. Things like crazy colors, cool bodies, stocks, etc. This is another area we can steal ideas from the speedsoft world. But you could take it a step further and run mayber quarterly contests, with public judging, for the coolest gun. And the winner gets a month free membership to the field. Or something like that.

[Magmoormaster]

Ima double post, cuz I don't care!!!

Just had an idea that would actually fall into the "innovative" category. How about a VR system that plugs into your gun? I'm thinking like a hopper or magazine that allows you to use your gun in a VR game, maybe with a mask made specifically for VR or maybe a special lens you can put into your existing mask. You then connect to your friends or random players via matchmaking so you can practice with your full setup, just without the paint. Would also be nice for people who don't have fields near them. And the cool thing is, with cloud gaming be so good these days, you wouldn't even need the hardware to be that crazy.

[vijil]

I suspect at that point it would (unfortunately) be a better, lower cost business model to literally just run a Spatial Ops location and not bother with the paintball at all. https://www.resolutiongames.com/spatialops

[Magmoormaster]

I'm thinking more along the lines of at-home use.

[glaman5266]

Don't have time to read the whole thread, but my quick three pennies:

-Keep making loaders better. We went from the outstanding Revolution to the brittle, battery-eating Halos (not sure what happened there, lol) to the Rotor and Spire. Now we have the HK Army Sonic, which is agitated (not FF) and uses only one 9v battery to feed a paintgun beyond NXL ramp speed. Loaders have been improving steadily for quite some time now. Keep it going. Maybe something like the Sonic but runs on 2 or 3 AAs?

-More tool-less stuff. We are seeing more of it with loaders & spool valve paintguns. Now let's go to tool-less trigger frame removal. I think there's one SP/Shocker out there now that has it.

-GI needs to go away. Permanently. That might open up so many interesting possibilities when other companies get a hold of the various patents and brands under the GI umbrella.

[glaman5266]

Magmoormaster Yeah, their paint sales are what's keeping them afloat. Them being owned by an equity firm says that and a lot more.

I guess I'm not sure what Valken's been up to as of late. They do seem to be occupying a bigger space than they have in the past. I also know that they haven't released that new sub-$200 FS shooter yet. I wanna give that a test drive, lol.

[Magmoormaster]

glaman5266 Valken is largley just a distributor now, with their own paint line. Similar to GI, the idea is that a field could get all of their supplies from one company and save on shipping. Problem is, their paint still sucks. It's just another incentive for fields to not get good paint. Good paint is out there, but fields are basically penalized for getting it.

[imped4now]

DLX introduced the tooless Luxe with the TM40 model years ago. It increases part count and cost. A single bolt at each end performs the job better, simpler and cheaper. Tooless has a place but the frame to body junction doesn't provide much value.

[vijil]

GI needs to go away. Permanently.

GI, Kore, everything they touch needs to go, and the entire exec team need to be permanently blacklisted from the industry.

But unfortunately the only way to do this would be to out compete them, buy them out, or stage a hostile takeover- and nobody can be bothered within PB. Fair enough at this point - I'm not sure PB is all that recoverable.

What's more likely is that alternatives like Spatial Ops (and similar future games and VR) will be the competition that finally ends PB. I know that if I were an angel investor I wouldn't bother with PB.

Gonna make a prediction:
Mixed Reality will take over where PB left off as the top level competitive Ranged Combat Sport. Airsoft, Nerf, laser tag, Bowtag, RAM and others will fade out fairly quickly over the next decade. (Yukigassen otoh will never die, it is the greatest sport ever invented).

Pro paintball teams that want to have long term dynasties (ahem), will need to make the switch at some point.

[glaman5266]

Perhaps no one will (or perhaps wants?) to outcompete, buy out or take over GI right now. But there is also the option of simply waiting for them to die. Being owned by an equity firm, unless they're bought out I think they're going to be cash-cowed until they're no longer worth much and then sold off. When that happens, who knows? Maybe someone will do something with all those patents they've scooped up over the years.

Unfortunately, that means we have to suffer until it happens. Or else the player base has to pull it's head out and not buy GI. But I think most casual players think of the dollar signs above all else when shopping for paintball, so they buy GI. It's a crappy situation we have.

[Refoogee]

GI, Kore, everything they touch needs to go, and the entire exec team need to be permanently blacklisted from the industry.

But unfortunately the only way to do this would be to out compete them, buy them out, or stage a hostile takeover- and nobody can be bothered within PB. Fair enough at this point - I'm not sure PB is all that recoverable.

What's more likely is that alternatives like Spatial Ops (and similar future games and VR) will be the competition that finally ends PB. I know that if I were an angel investor I wouldn't bother with PB.

Gonna make a prediction:
Mixed Reality will take over where PB left off as the top level competitive Ranged Combat Sport. Airsoft, Nerf, laser tag, Bowtag, RAM and others will fade out fairly quickly over the next decade. (Yukigassen otoh will never die, it is the greatest sport ever invented).

Pro paintball teams that want to have long term dynasties (ahem), will need to make the switch at some point.

AR tech in all these "shooting each other" games is something I've heard plenty of people on here talk about.I remember some company was thinking of marketing some sort of HUD for popular paintball masks to be used in paintball/airsoft, with some sort of modular software running on it. I don't think it ever hit the market.

I agree that AR tech will likely eventually make everything we're talking about obsolete. Feel like playing a speedball style game? Change the software. Want to play a milsim game? Change the software. Want to tweak the performance? Software. Easy to ref, hard to cheat, barely any maintenance, no disposable resources, etc.

As of right now, the tech just isn't there yet. I don't see it being there for quite some time. There's malls that offer the whole AR FPS experience thing, and it's just worse laser tag. There's a reason we all didn't just stick to laser tag systems, and the AR experience is currently worse than that. It needs to get to the point of offering something better, and we're still at the ground floor. I mean, we haven't even gotten VR in home gaming to a point of widespread adoption yet, and they've been at it for a decade or so now.

Strapping a hot, and heavy, device to your head, with limited FOV, with only your head, and hands, currently tracked, to play janky laser tag, currently offer too little, at too much cost. Not saying this won't change, just not for a long while.

[vijil]

That's a fair comment, though if you've seen spatial ops you'll know we're not that far off in terms of software. The hardware is the sticking point right now. I got rid of my Quest because the weight was busting my neck.

That's why I say "over the next decade" though.

[Magmoormaster]

Yeah I'm highly skeptical. I think the pandemic taught us that people prefer in-person activities, not online versions. I think real action sports will always remain a thing because of that. And besides, as was mentioned, VR hasn't taken off, the Wii or Xbox Kinect didn't change gaming. People don't want to do physical activity to play what is essentially a video game. I just don't see it. I don't think we're headed for a Ready Player One world.

[vijil]

You're mixing up VR with AR.

Spatial Ops and games like it are AR. You're still physically there with the other people, the headset just overlays the game.

It's taking a while, but it's absolutely happening. There will be an inflection point soon.

Stats tell a bit - Oculus Quest 2 sold better than the xbox. Quest 2 and 3 sales in Q4 2023 were over a billion dollars just for the quarter, and it's only going up.

[Magmoormaster]

I probably am mixing things up. I think AR could be popular, but unless you're still shooting a real round of some kind I don't see it replacing things. Even with haptic suits, there would be less adrenaline, if any, compared to paintball or airsoft.

[Magmoormaster]

Ok, I've had this idea for the whole indoor 50cal magfed thing stuck in my head since I Came up with it. It's not feasible for it to take over paintball as a whole, considering how much of paintball would have to fundamentally change. Also it would be very difficult to get the gear to work the way I would need.

It does go back to the whole paintball vs airsoft debate. Yes, on a base level paintball is more fun to play, and it's a lot easier to ref. It is much easier to make competitive paintball a thing. But the whole novelty themed rooms with crazy objectives... while it would be a really fun experience, and possibly a decent business model, it would be so much easier from a business side to just run it with airsoft guns. Get a good SMG, run it with hi cap mags, maybe do some mods to make them look more sci-fi or cartoony or whatever vibe you want.

So as much as I want this concept to work... I just don't think it would, even if I did have the $20 million dollars it would take to really get it off the ground.

But the gameplay seems so fun in its own right that I'm still stuck on it. And realistically, it's just magfed paintball with more stylized guns and faster gameplay. But the fundamental problem I have with magfed, and I think this holds it back from really going somewhere, is the extreme low capacity it offers. This was a big part of why I wanted to go 50cal to begin with, but it's not a s big of a difference as I'd like, and I think it would be easier to make higher capacity mags than make a 50cal conversion kit for an EMF100.

I want to get mags up to 50 rounds. I actually think that's pretty doable.

So here's my thought. Airsoft has hi cap mags, which hold as many as 500 rounds. But you have to wind them constantly. That's annoying. But then there's the AT85. The magazine is something like half the size of a CF20, and holds more paintballs. It uses that funky chain feed thing instead of a spring, and the other half of the mag is basically just open paint storage. Shouldn't be hard to extend the magazine until it holds the desired number of rounds, right? Problem there is that the bolt movement of the gun is what drives that chain. So you tailor-make the gun with the mags... possible, but it would be so much better if we could make a magazine that can go into existing guns. So how do we get the chain to operate on its own?

Electric motor is the most obvious. Basically take the exact same chain feed method but attach it to a motor that spins it. Would not be difficult. But you'd dramatically increase the cost of the mags, and you'd need to run them off of batteries. I don't see that selling. I'd be willing to run them if it's the only option, but maybe we can do better.

So here's where I'd need the help of smarter people than I. What about those wind-up motors? Design it such that you wind it enough that it will run the chain continuously thru the whole mag. I feel like the main hurdle would be making sure it doesnt just release all the pent-up energy in the spring at once. You obviously want to limit how much pressure is on the ball so it doesn't break.

What do y'all think? If it could be made to work, I think it would be awesome. Maybe even make it so the top of the mag can be swapped out to fit MCS, DYE, TMC, and whatever other magfed guns people are using these days.

[Riot]

-No one wants to admit it, but that's the key, right there.

Regardless of how the game is played (X-Ball, woodsball, Airball, pump, room-to-room, etc.) you're dealing with a game that's messy and painful. A player leaves the field covered with welts, bruises and globs of colored goo.

It really is as simple as that.

Yes, it's fun, the bruising is generally minimal, and a little care can minimize errant paint. We've all been dealing with that for years. But the simple fact is, not everybody likes that THWAP! and the resulting several-day sore-spot.

20 years ago, Paintball was one of a comparatively few options for entertainment- and one of the only ways you could shoot your buddy and get away with it. But today, we have too much competition- yeah, streaming TV isn't as adrenaline-boosting as paintball, but it also doesn't give you a tazer-zap when you do something wrong, either.

Online gaming comes close to the same thrill, with no pain, no real physical effort, a lot cheaper and no cleanup. A good game these days can have sales of ten million the day it releases- we're lucky to see half that many players in a year.

Now, we can't really change that one aspect- the paintball will always sting when it hits, and will always leave behind a mark- that's kind of the point. To change that would be like playing baseball without a ball, or hockey without the puck.

So what we need to do is make the rest of the experience better. How do we do that?

Doc.

I was enjoying the thread and everyone’s take, but this one stopped me for its accuracy, that is seemingly overlooked. Paintballs hurt. Period.
Do they hurt badly? No.
Are they pain free? No.
Do they leave welts? Usually.

I’ve just never understood the idea of people doing things that cause discomfort. I bet every one of your perverts watched “two girls, one cup” at some point in your life.
I never have, because I’m not stupid. “Hey, here’s this video of girls pooping and vomiting on each other.” And everyone is like, “oh man, I gotta see that!” Causing yourself pain and discomfort is dumb, no matter how you spin it.

I’m not here to kink shame, however. If you’re into the thrill of getting hurt, if you get a little halfie every time a paintball breaks skin, if you enjoy two women defecating on each other, I’m not judging you… but, let’s call a spade a spade here… if you aren’t into those, it’s dumb to trade pain for entertainment.

That said, obviously aspects of the game are good fun, and I may have accidentally just made a case for jelly ball or laser tag…
but to echo @Doc’s sentiment, most people aren’t perverts… errr, I mean, don’t want to trade pain for entertainment.