Metadyne Thumper/Phoenix Redux

[Chuck E Ducky]

This is how I hold it and it feels very natural. Nothing to get pinched due to its design. You can pump it one handed. You could totally use two at the same time. Or thumb cock it on the back and put your other hand in right in front of the trigger guard. Plenty of room under the front to keep your hand out of the way from the moving barrel. I can’t get the mussel memory down cocking it by the barrel because it’s opposite of everything else. But I guess you could do that as well. It points nicely I can shoot it accurately just picking it up. I don’t think it needs a VASA to hold it. I’m hopeful the VASA will allow it to work on 12g. If it’s going to only be an HPA marker I may still get one as a 9 ci off the front might be a fun setup. But then I would need to figure out a stock mount option that would require a grip change .

It’s a unique design so it’s not for everyone. I’m not seeing the breaking paint issue with mine so far. I’m running 450psi input pressure to it with my powerhouse reg. I’m overboreing it letting the detents do their job. I haven’t played in the cold with it tho. Just plinking in the backyard I am using good paint that shot really good last time I played in the Mid 40’s.

[Jonnydread]

I tried a 500psi output tank and a 750psi output tank and there wasn't any appreciable difference in velocity.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Was it a softer shot tho? Next time we play we can mess around with it a bit when you get back. I’m just out of air so I got to get to the field to do more testing. Maybe I can get out this weekend.

[Jonnydread]

I would say the 450 had a slightly poofier shot, but since both of them had to have the reg cranked to get to field velocity it was still pretty kicky.

[TF_Aloha]

After watching the Peculiar Paintball video, I wonder if the paint breakage might be due to the sleeve that comes back into the breech acting like a guillotine if the paint is too far off in size, or oddly-shaped. That sleeve seems pretty thin and, if a ball is too small, the next ball could get clipped pretty hard because it might be sitting lower than expected. They clearly wanted to make a nice cup for the ball to sit in with the way they used those detents, but if paint is sized too far out of the expected size or if it's not very round (basically, most modern paint) then it might just be holding a ball in the way of the actuating sleeve.

I also wonder if force-feed loaders vs agitating/gravity loaders (or the modified stock-class tube) might affect this. A force feed with small paint might hold the next ball in a very uncomfortable spot.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Possibly, I haven’t and probably won’t ever put a force fed hopper on it. Its stick feed works well so I doubt I will ever even use the hopper attachment. I got other better open
class pumps for that.

Are you guys getting barrels breaks or is it clipping or breaking in the breach?

Johnny try removing the detents and putting dummy detent between the barrel and body. See if that solves anything for you. Maybe the detent spring pressure is too much pushing the ball up and clipping?

Next time we play bring it and we can compare them side by side maybe figure out what it is.

[RuleOfSines]

Possibly, I haven’t and probably won’t ever put a force fed hopper on it. Its stick feed works well so I doubt I will ever even use the hopper attachment. I got other better open
class pumps for that.

Are you guys getting barrels breaks or is it clipping or breaking in the breach?

Johnny try removing the detents and putting dummy detent between the barrel and body. See if that solves anything for you. Maybe the detent spring pressure is too much pushing the ball up and clipping?

Next time we play bring it and we can compare them side by side maybe figure out what it is.

I think mine is breaking as it enters the barrel, breach wasn't a mess. Might be a result of the ball sitting behind the barrel instead of just inside it when it fires. Bigger bore may help with that. I'll try and mess with it this weekend.

[RuleOfSines]

Follow up: mine doesn’t shoot anymore! Chuff, click, nothing. I believe I know why but FFS it’s the same as the thumper

[Impactfour]

I'll be curious to see what the tinkerers who had success with the thumper make of it at least

[Jonnydread]

It’s cause you used oil you SINNER

[RuleOfSines]

I actually didn’t yet! I went to Florida on a business trip, came back, and it won’t work. Oiling it would fix it though, up until it kills the valve. I wonder if these were tested in cold climates at all.

[KMDPB]

Welp, glad I decided not to buy one right away..

[Chuck E Ducky]

I’m not worried about it. It was a fairly inexpensive purchase. It’s unique enough I will work around its quirks.

[Loophole]

Same!

[Kit]

Looks like it needs to be pre regulated to 300psi like the original. If the Nova regulator are available separately, that would be a good option to keep the gas thru grip. Not sure of the Nova regulator operation pressures.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Was that the fix for the old one? If that’s the case I will just drop reg pressure on my on my powerhouse they are pretty consistent. I wonder if my palmers Cart reg would work on it if I drop it down to 300 PSI as well. Or possibly a In grip LPR like what they do with mags maybe an option to if it’s just a regulation issue.

[RuleOfSines]

Got mine working again, I had to turn down the rear oring groove in the piston. The fitment was way too tight and made the piston hard to move without gobs of grease. Even with gobs of grease, it was slow to return and sometimes unable to actually return fully at all. Now it snaps shut after cocking. The front oring could maybe use the same treatment, but I’m going to hold off on that one for the moment.

[AnarchicArctic]

Interesting…I wonder how much variance there is between the pistons, or if they could all use a shave

[Timefreak17]

When I get home, I will measure my piston...that won't be for a month

[Timefreak17]

Rear o-ring inner diameter - 12.55mm
Outer rim of rear piston - 17.29mm

[RuleOfSines]

Part 2: I actually shoot it this time, or try to. It doesn't go well.

[XEMON]

In which way?
From your videos there is a few things that makes me sad/disappointed ... You'd think they would have learned a bit more from the thumper ...

I'm waiting for one to pop up "used/not working" to compare it to he thumper 😁

[RuleOfSines]

Kit I'll have to look closer at that. Unlike the Thumper, this does not have any oring sealing the breech mechanism, not enough material on the nose to add one either unforunately.

XEMON its chunkier, pump action isn't as smooth, barrel is wobbly, can't feed rounds into the tube properly. Honestly I'd rather just have the Thumper back, with whatever fixes were made to the regulator.

[Levi]

Really great video! Yeah... I'll be sticking with my snipers and phantoms... I hope they are receptive to the feedback and chose to go back and fix this thing. I was expecting better after the thumper mess.

[Slim]

I posted this comment on the YouTube video earlier today, but feel it's worth repeating here...

Another informative and well-produced video that details important observations with this marker. Thank you for making this! Unfortunately, the negative issues covered in the first video are only compounded with newer revelations this time around.

I experienced the same level of frustration at the overall complexity regarding disassembly/reassembly of this marker. If you're fed up with the assembly/disassembly of this thing now while using HPA, then you'll loose your mind when you start using CO2. Having to go through this many steps and having to use different tools just to get the thing apart is beyond maddening. The fact that these tiny screw heads are already stripping out while making a couple of test videos speaks volumes.

As there are a large number of stock-class players eyeballing this marker (specifically because it's being sold/marketed with a traditional stock-class feed), I think it's important to talk about that aspect. We have a marker here where the horizontal feed can't be used with a 10-round tube AND the marker can't be used with CO2 - basically rendering it completely useless for stock-class play. Scott at Metadyne told me on a call last September that even if the issues with the macroline/adjustable gas-through grip weren't an issue with CO2 (presumably the vertical ASA version is the solution to that), then the internal o-rings on the piston still would be a problem. Apparently, the piston o-rings won't hold up to long term CO2 use. It's beyond obvious that Metadyne designed the marker to run on HPA ONLY, so WHY INCLUDE A STOCK-CLASS FEED??!? Even IF the feedtube issue is resolved, and even IF the CO2 issues with the piston o-rings are resolved, there is still the issue of CO2 efficiency. Do you hear that little "chuff" of air venting out of the valve every time the marker is cocked/primed? I believe that is air escaping just before the piston seals during the cocking process. There is simply NO way to maintain ANY 12-gram CO2 efficiency if a marker releases even a tiny amount of CO2 during the cocking process. None.

At this point it seems pretty clear that Metadyne needs to "cut bait" and give up on the whole stock-class aspect of this marker. With the time, money and energy it will require to make this thing usable for true stock-class play (i.e. efficient CO2 use), it will undoubtably eat into any profit margins they have left. The smart thing to do here would be addressing the existing issues the marker has (some of which are pretty significant - like the barrel wobble) and fix all those first. Once the big issues are solved, then simply market this as an open-class pump (with a built-in feed nipple) and eliminate the production costs of including a stock-class feed.

The Phoenix was supposed to represent a redemptive measure for Metadyne - a way for the company to make good on the failures of the Thumper debacle. Unfortunately, they seem to be making many similar missteps in their approach to the overall design, lack of adequate beta testing (meaning months of extensive field use by non-employee players in different climates) and ultimately, how they are marketing their product. Obviously, listening to AND addressing user feedback and player's concerns would benefit them immensely. However, their rush to production and continuing to market this to a group of players who will never be able to use it seems like a totally unnecessary waste of time and money for everyone involved. Once the bugs are worked out, this seems like it may be a fun new option for open-class pump players.

[Timefreak17]

To those who purchased a Phoenix. Scott sent out an email addressing the 10rd feed not working.

Email quote:
It would appear that we have come across two issues from user feedback. 1. Some people are having issues getting their barrel to thread in all the way. This is caused by the anodizing being just a little thick in that area. we have run a tap through all the ones we have on hand. If you are having this issue please email me and I will send you out a new one.
2. It would appear that you can not stick a ten round tube far enough into the stock class adapter to empty the tube. We are not sure how this happened but we take full responsibility for not double checking. The amount of material needed to be removed is tiny but still causes a problem. I will be mailing out a new one today and tomorrow if you ordered one. there will also be a self addressed stamped envelope to return the old one.

Also if you ordered a barrel they finally came in and I will get them out today.

End quote;

I appreciate that they are reaching out to correct any issues. Hopefully all or any feedback helps move the Phoenix in a better direction.

[Daky]

I'm curious on what they will be mailing out. Are they mailing out a trimmed down ball retainer? Or a new adapter that will allow a 10 round tube to fit properly...

[XEMON]

I would suspect a trim retainer, if they want the "old" one back, they are probably gonna trim them and send them back out under "warranty replacement" ... That's the most cost effective and fastest way of doing it

[screwloose45]

Just picked up my phoenix to dry fire a couple shots, cocked it twice and now it's jammed internally. I can only pump it about 20% before it feels bound up inside and feels like forcing it will break something. Rip

[screwloose45]

No paddles installed, something inside feels mega broken

[RuleOfSines]

Make sure the safety is fully off, not even slightly on.

[screwloose45]

Tried safety both ways, no difference. Something internally feels like metal goulging or something. I'll try take it apart tomorrow.

[Riot]

Bummed to see these going poorly.
Happy to see them trying to make everything right.

[Arthur]

Super bummer on this.