Dye DFF-20 Lazarus Valve

[Trbo323]

All 2k+ standard are 9/16. Trilogy bodies were 11/16

Ok I had it backwards thanks

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[Fuegoman]

Some things I’ve noticed on laz. Currently in a 2k1 black magic bored out by angry. Also his jenni Kraig and spring. They work well, both of them. The issue I’ve seen with the jenni Kraig is figment in the lower tube. If there is any resistance on the hammer as it goes through the tube it won’t hit velocity. I’ve also had my hammer swell when my gun sits in full sun for about 10 mins. It’s never happened on the field while in use, but sitting still laid on its side in full sun caused it to swell. I took an old cocking rod screwed into the hammer and then chucked it in my drill and hit it with coarse grit sandpaper then smoothed it back out with fine grit up to 1000 grit. The hammer needs to be able to drop through the lower tube without hangin up. Also the u-cup, with that in and with a barrel muffler on I would have weird pops when rapid firing like the valve wasn’t completely closing or opening. I changed this to 009 70d and did not have this issue anymore, and I personally think this may have helped with some efficiency. I have now put 2-3 cases through it and I trust it. Mine is in the neighborhood of 200-220 psi about 2-2 1/2 turns in on the IVG. One cool thing is I critically tune mine based on paint to barrel matching, and had an issue this past weekend where a .675 barrel was having roll outs. I didn’t need to change springs to get into being able to shoot field velocity. The HPR just increased to 275 psi and made it work all day. Also the cascade of effects down to lower lpr pressure, and frame spring rates decreasing allows for really smooth frames and guns without diminishing your efficiency. That was always a trade off before, but not so much now. I get roughly 400-500 shots per 1000 psi in my 80ci tank. So there is that little benefit. I like it, seems to be smoother and less violent in the cycle than all my other cockers at similar pressures.

[imped4now]

Anecdotally, I believe U-Cups are not ideal for efficiency in most paintball applications. Reliable sealing > a slight reduction in friction.

[latches109]

imped4now You spread so much miss-information. This is a Dye engineering design failure and manufacturing failure - Not a materials failure. U-cups seal very well and are excellent choice for many mission critical applications. Aerospace, automotive, aviation all use this seal design.

[imped4now]

*Spread* misinformation? Incorrect.

I'm a 15 year automotive engineer man.

I have used U-Cups in a handful of non-standard paintball cases, such as Insight/Onslaught shutoff and ram 010 seals (which I saw a small but measurable decrease in efficiency), Dye Fuse valve seal and one-way ram sail seals (Infinity Legend). In early Laz testing, I ran both the U-Cup and an O-Ring there and while the difference was within margin of error, it was still an observation, hence "anecdotally." I'd love to test a Force with certain U-Cups swapped out in favor of O-Rings, but never got around to that when I had the chance. I've always speculated that there was dynamic leakage occurring within that system, hence the poor efficiency results.

To your point, U-Cup usage does require different gland design than O-Ring usage. Having seen miscommunication between Dye's design and manufacturing teams before (DLS), perhaps that's the case here. Without performing a deep dive, I don't have that answer.

[Psycho91]

The more people mess with these laz valves and the Jenni kraig it seems like they aernt really worth the headache you could get with them, might just go with ST or just stock lowers

[Fuegoman]

I think with any new product, especially a radical departure from previous products, there’s always a learning curve. If the laz is something you’re interested in, rest assured it works. As far as the exploration of finding its most ideal setup in the autococker we are still working into that. Shocktech lowers are certainly proven and work well and give you a lot of the benefits of the laz. Lower operating pressure, lower lpr pressure, and decent efficiency. They are definitely solid. I would go full shocktech lowers tho. Springs, valve, and hammer.

[Luscious]

I built a Trilogy out of junk today. This was converted to pump years ago, but converted it back to semi-auto today. Used a 04 Prostock hinge frame, Gog Enmey reg, 3d printed back block and a bolt from a Psycho Ballistics lightning. The rest was stock Trilogy. Added the lovely new valve (That silly front spring and washers was long gone)! The original valve O-rings and LPR O-rings had all turned to jelly, so a full clean and rebuild was had. The reg was maxxed out- 300psi??? Not enough in it to work on most of my cockers. The stock spring and IVG were around 7 turns in from flush and I was hitting between 275-283 with six month old paint (Originally bored at .677 but had swelled to .681). Used a HK army one piece .681 barrel. I hand pumped my 13ci 3k bottle with a PCP pump (260ish pumps by the way) to bang on 3000psi. I got 153 shots across my bedroom into a pillowcase. Didn't really notice any drop off over 30feet- gun feels amazing! By comparison, my magfed Tippmann gets 80ish shots from the same bottle.

[MrBarraclough]

A GoG eNMEy reg should max out around 200psi, unless you shim the spring in the overpressure relief valve to let it run hot. Then you might get 250 or even 300 before it starts venting from overpressure relief. The little internal hoses in an eNMEy aren't rated much above 200, if even that (they're basically cocker LPR hoses). Because the eNMEy was meant to at least tolerate CO2, the HPR was designed to vent any overpressure to protect the internals.

The little spring in the overpressure relief system tends to lose strength with age, so it starts to vent at lower than desired pressures. My workaround for this has been to drop a 005 or 006 o-ring into the little brass cup in which that spring sits to shim it and give it a bit more resistance. That lets you use the full range of the HPR without triggering an overpressure vent, but that range still has a pretty low top end since you'd never have a reason to feed an eNMEy more than 200psi. It's the same HPR that was inherited from the eNVy.

[PlawB]

Anyone know when these will be back in stock?

I saw dozens listed on ebay yesterday or the day before by actionvillage.

[Otnasir]

Can anyone point me to a complete list of cockers that those will fit it? I'm looking for a full body cooker (back block) that I can build myself.

Tyvm for the help

[Cdn_Cuda]

If it’s a WGP body these valves will not fit. They will not fit 2k5 Black Magic, despite the body using an 11/16 valve. They will fit a trilogy cocker bodies and Empire Sniper/Resurrections though.

If you want to build a standard cocker with a balance valve you can look at Nova’s balanced valve though.

[BrickHaus]

So. Now that I've finally had a chance to shoot mine.

Tactical trilogy, with the JC hammer spring combo.

Pre set my regulator to 200 psi. And tried to adjust to 290 fps on the IVG. I had the IVG 4.5 turns in to get to 260.

At this point I didn't like it. I also didnt have a reg tester to see where I was. I tried to increase the Input pressure some. That seemed to drop my velocity. I backed off on my IVG to just about flush. And I backed off on input about a quarter turn ( evil detonator)

Put it all back together and it was in the 270 range. 1.5 turns or so on the IVG got me into the 290s.

I put my pug on a tester after the fact, and it seems to be a solid 180 psi.

[MrBarraclough]

Sounds like the Lazarus might be precisely the solution to my problem of my Trilogy Comp not wanting to shoot above 240 with an Inception IVG cranked all the way in and the stock reg outputting around 250psi. I can get up to the 280s only by switching back to the stock IVG since it can go a couple more turns before bottoming out.

[superman]

Have you tried sweet spotting the reg? does it actually peak at 250? are you using the stock main spring? the inception springs are longer.

[MrBarraclough]

superman was that directed at me or at BrickHaus?

[SR_matt]

Just had a question pop into my head. With the "breach sensing" (or what ever marketing term they are using), does that alone help to make shot to shot velocity more consistent? We know that shooting an over bore vs and underbore usually will change the actual velocity with out changing any other factors, but if you are undbored the breach pressure I assume ends up higher (thus closing the valve faster) and over bore lower (thus closing the valve slower.

or did I just miss this already being discussed on this thread?

[latches109]

I have both stock and LAZ valves shooting very consistent. Zero difference there.

[Frmrspec]

Just had a question pop into my head. With the "breach sensing" (or what ever marketing term they are using), does that alone help to make shot to shot velocity more consistent?

Breach sensing has more to do with efficiency than anything else. Just because of the nature of balanced systems they don't close very fast (less closing bias), so the back pressure from the shot helps close the valve faster. You get the benefit of a valve that is easy to open without the drawback of a wasteful mechanical over-dwelling. Also the old Bob Long valves that the Lazarus is based off of would sometimes get a vacuum within the cap causing issues.

[SR_matt]

Breach sensing has more to do with efficiency than anything else. Just because of the nature of balanced systems they don't close very fast (less closing bias), so the back pressure from the shot helps close the valve faster. You get the benefit of a valve that is easy to open without the drawback of a wasteful mechanical over-dwelling. Also the old Bob Long valves that the Lazarus is based off of would sometimes get a vacuum within the cap causing issues.

I could see that. basically an under bore causing negative pressure to develop as the ball moves down the barrel, or even just Venturi effect of the air (like suction timing). I assume as long as you get it tuned to a point where the valve closes before you can develop any negative pressure in the breach you wont have that issue... but I am not an engineer just a technical nerd.

[tyronejk]

There's no negative pressure developed behind a paintball with an underbore or with this valve.

This valve works by using the pressure pulse from firing to help close the valve. So both this valve and traditional valves require the ram/hammer to push against the valve spring + chamber pressure to open the valve. But traditional valves have only the valve spring to close the valve while the Laz valve has the valve spring + firing pressure pulse to close the valve.

[flyweightnate]

The backpressure will shorten the dwell, improving efficiency as mentioned above, and the barrel is pressurized until the gas escapes at the ports/ muzzle so no worries there.

There may be a slight change in dwell depending on where the ball rests in the chamber/ barrel, since it will affect the amount of volume that initial pulse fills, so I'd think underbores and detents will be important if you're chasing maximum consistency. I tested something with similar behavior back in college and I could get wildly different dwell by removing the barrel. This is obviously far more refined than my build, but still... it's an impact.

[Jordan]

Are you guys sweetspotting the reg and adjusting velocity via the IVG, or using the reg/OP to adjust?

I've only set up oldschool 9/16 valves, and was unsure if there was a difference with the Lazarus.

[latches109]

no sweet spotting in the traditional sense. All of the 14 Laz valves I have installed so far sat around 180-240 PSI depending on body, hammer, spring etc. Try to hit 190-210 PSI, seems to be the correct pressure for the stock valve spring.

[Psycho91]

I have been wondering this myself, so with the laz valve you just kinda pick a pressure to set the reg at and then adjust with the ivg and then tune from there

[latches109]

increasing pressure definitely increases velocity. I choose to try and hit 190-210psi because I like the sound and how it shoots. If you are trying to max out the lightness in the hammer spring, or lowest LPR pressure, then dancing with both pressure and IVG tension will be needed.

[Otnasir]

Both me and my friend have them in our empire snipers, Jenny hammers and springs. They are both at 150psi. To me it sounds like yall are not able to get most other cockers down that low?

[Frmrspec]

How are you measuring the pressure? Hopefully not the gauge that comes on the snipers because those are terribly inaccurate..

[Frmrspec]

I built a 2K with Nova valve, a sniper with morph valve and a sniper with laz valve just to compare them all.. hopefully will get some film tomorrow..

[Jay Lederman]

Is there a special tool used to install the Nova valve? I was at ION this past weekend and the guy at the NFG tent said he didn't have the right tool to insert the Nova valve that I bought.. in addition to that, the guys at the Nova tent said they could not install the valve I just bought from them because my current hammer inside my 2K had a divot and they suggested I buy a flat-faced hammer instead.

[zinger565]

Jay, the Nova guys suggest using a nut driver instead of a socket since they usually have thinner walls and can more easily fit into the hole in cocker bodies.

[Frmrspec]

Keep in mind the nut driver can’t have an OD larger than .6875(ish)… I bought 3 nut drivers from Lowe’s/Home Depot and all of them were .75 OD (stupid blister packs prevent you from being able to measure).. I ended up just turning down the OD on my lathe