Dye DFF-20 Lazarus Valve

[cougar20th]

I like this idea and what they are saying. But I am going to wait to see what others think of these. I would love one in my merlin if it can speed that gun up even more then it is. But that gun is extremely finicky.

[cfos00]

I am thinking of picking one up and tossing it into one of mine, then torture testing it. My guns can really show what a valve can do in terms of speed and efficiency, and that's what would want to see with these. It's all well and good that they can run lower pressure, but I'd want to see the practical applications with efficiency more than anything.

[imped4now]

I can assure you they've been properly torture tested, but feel free to continue. As for optimizing efficiency, you'll want to likely reduce the hammer mass and/or main spring rate vs. what you're currently running. Since the valve open force is so much lighter, there's no need to slam a bunch of energy into the pin in order to open it. But additionally, since it's partially balanced, the closing force is less than with an unbalanced valve, even with the breech-sensing passage assisting the closing bias. So, the heavier the hammer and the spring, the longer it'll take to close.

[Cdn_Cuda]

Anyone got any shipping info for these yet? I order through Freeflow. Just wondering (impatiently) when I may get it. Valves are also back in stock at Freeflow.

[MozakMachine]

Valves look great, I’ll be offering my new blank/milled bodies with an 11/16 option for these and other valves

[jetenginekyle]

Anyone got any shipping info for these yet? I order through Freeflow. Just wondering (impatiently) when I may get it. Valves are also back in stock at Freeflow.

I ordered from dye on Monday and fedex dropped it off a couple minutes ago

[Chuck E Ducky]

That exhaust port is massive.

[paintballedbackin88]

Just saw a video posted by Jason Antle on FB and it shows him testing the valve in one of his custom bodies. Approx 160 psi. I just ordered one for my own trilogy, which is currently running a PPS low pressure 11/16 valve.

[Pumpytrilly1]

I want to try this. Kind of reminds me of a ndz rip valve

[imped4now]

The NDZ Rip was ahead of its time - neat packaging and clean flow around the head and to the bolt, but still unbalanced with no breech-sensing. The Lazarus is quite a leap forward.

[latches109]

It's nice having access to a new morph valve, which I like in trilogies to eliminate the Spyder spring.
This looks like a good copy. Should you go out and get one? I'll shoot it tomorrow and let you know.

Keep in mind, there is more maintenance with this valve design using 3 dynamic orings vs one hard cup seal. (morph and Lazarus)
The claim on increased consistency is a stretch, considering the addition of 2 more failure points and a soft cup seal. Lot of that is HPR dependent as well.
"Breach Sensing Technology" lol cheesy marketing. morph has Venturi breach sensing.

[superman]

I 3d print spring guides for trilogies to get rid of the stock spring. It does eat up some volume but still better than the stock spring.

[imped4now]

The designer of the Lazarus historically despises the Morph...FYI. It's not a "copy."

I own all valves pictured (and don't despise the Morph), so I'm not spouting random BS or trying to argue. The Morph "senses" the firing pulse due to position, while the Lazarus has direct communication between the shot pulse and spring chamber. I suspect the Lazarus has less opening force, but also less closing force, especially given the difference in spring rate.

[latches109]

imped4now we will just have to disagree. I see a copy with some "improvements" / applied their opinions on the design.
Function is the same, the morph also has holes to the spring chamber, you have to deal with vacuum some how.

[zinger565]

Ah man, now I kinda want to put one in my trilly pump...it's got a leaky valve anyways

[iamthelazerviking]

Angry is now offering the Jenni Kraig hammer, a super light one to pair with this valve. His example was at 160 psi shooting in 280s. He mentioned using the lightest spring he could find. I'm sure the light spring from the Inception Designs spring kit would be a good option.

[Cdn_Cuda]

I'm hopping the light ID spring will work. I guess my next issue is whether my HPR can drop that low.

[AndrewTheWookiee]

I've seen a few mentions in here, but just to reiterate, it's not a copy or evolution of the morph valve. It's essentially Lurker's control freak poppet for the Gen4 Timmys (which was released in 2012).

[imped4now]

The designer of the Lazarus is a big Lurker fan (Ryan and him are very close), and they also worked together on the DLS. So yes, this is a modernized Control Freak (the valve that introduced breech-sensing to paintball).

[latches109]

first I saw one was in a Spyder valve

[Jonnydread]

Would somebody please give me a simple breakdown of how a valve can been "breech-sensing"? My base understanding is that these types of valves (I know they're different, I'm generalizing) are adjustable from the HPR side so you have pinpoint control and can balance the valve operation more finely. Is this reasonably close or am I missing the point?

[imped4now]

Breech-sensing: There is a hole on the exhaust side of the pin and inside the bore where the spring sits, with a communication passage between the holes. The U-Cup seal seals off the "spring chamber" side of the pin. When the valve opens to fire, some of the air rushing to the bolt/ball travels into the hole, through the passage and into the spring chamber (the closing surface area of the valve) to provide a closing bias. This is the exact same concept seen on any modern breech-sensing spool valve - IV Core, Gamma, ARC, etc. This is why there is an orifice at the tip of the valve with a passage extending the length to the small chamber behind the valve - to provide extra closing bias.

CS1 example: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/cs1b.gif
Gamma example: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/gtek.gif

In the Gamma's case, the air saved by the advanced valve closure is responsible for resetting the bolt to its home position.

The breech-sensing concept was introduced by Lurker with the Control Freak poppet and in a production marker with the PE IV Core.

[Jonnydread]

Thanks for the responses fellas.

[flyweightnate]

Ah, I get it now. This is backwards from that design I had that drove me nuts; it's a neat feature to trigger it closing (although I'm curious just how much impact it has). This is rapidly moving up my list...

[Trbo323]

Would somebody please give me a simple breakdown of how a valve can been "breech-sensing"? My base understanding is that these types of valves (I know they're different, I'm generalizing) are adjustable from the HPR side so you have pinpoint control and can balance the valve operation more finely. Is this reasonably close or am I missing the point?

Anything is new technology if you apply the right marketing

"SFT" anyone?

(As a disclaimer, I don't actually know what they are referring to with that phrase, my gut says it's marketing over anything)

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[imped4now]

You believe "breech-sensing" is marketing? It's not and it's over a decade old at this point....absolutely nothing new.

Breech-sensing: There is a hole on the exhaust side of the pin and inside the bore where the spring sits, with a communication passage between the holes. The U-Cup seal seals off the "spring chamber" side of the pin. When the valve opens to fire, some of the air rushing to the bolt/ball travels into the hole, through the passage and into the spring chamber (the closing surface area of the valve) to provide a closing bias. This is the exact same concept seen on any modern breech-sensing spool valve - IV Core, Gamma, ARC, etc. This is why there is an orifice at the tip of the valve with a passage extending the length to the small chamber behind the valve - to provide extra closing bias.

CS1 example: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/cs1b.gif
Gamma example: http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/gtek.gif

In the Gamma's case, the air saved by the advanced valve closure is responsible for resetting the bolt to its home position.

The breech-sensing concept was introduced by Lurker with the Control Freak poppet and in a production marker with the PE IV Core.

[latches109]

Pressure compensating valves have been in text books more than 200years. This is why the breach sensing marketing is so dumb. Navy ships since mid-century use this for many systems, anchors, steering, etc.

[latches109]

I've seen a few mentions in here, but just to reiterate, it's not a copy or evolution of the morph valve. It's essentially Lurker's control freak poppet for the Gen4 Timmys (which was released in 2012).

”We sampled it from them but it’s not the same bassline. It goes ‘ding ding ding di di ding ding… ding ding ding di di ding ding.’ That’s the way theirs goes. Ours goes ‘ding ding ding di di ding ding… DING… ding ding ding di di ding ding.’ That little bitty change — it’s not the same.” -vanilla ice didn't he loose this lawsuit.




Taking your engine and put it in someone else's design, does not make the whole thing yours. Did they design a self-contained autococker valve I missed? (rhetorical)

It does not matter if it's a copy anyway. Every aftermarket valve for autocockers is a copy, each brand changed something small they thought was a benefit. We still bought them even though the stock valve shoots fine.

After testing it today, I think it is a better design than the morph and perfect for a Trilogy. It might be a very efficient valve. I'll test it out.

[zinger565]

And balanced poppet valves are not exclusive to the paintball world either.

[Cyrus-the-virus]

Well color me intrigued. I have an empire sniper that I haven't done much with just yet.