Is there a market for new stock class guns?

[BOOSH!]

I've been wanting to put time into creating a new stock class gun. Is there even a market for a new gun? What would you expect to pay for a new stock class gun? All new machined parts, body, barrels are expensive to produce especially in small quantities. I'm not even talking anything custom just a plain black anodized stock gun.

What do you think? What would the price point have to be for you to order a new stock class gun?

[Jonnydread]

For me it’s not so much about price as it is what I’m getting. Is the new gun just another Nelson or Sheridan, or am I getting something that looks and feels truly unique? Innovation would be a necessity for me, price point would probably have to be $600 or less, I can’t see myself spending any more than that on a leap of faith.

[lizardking132]

Only new production stock class guns I can think of is sterlings, and the phantom.

[shooter311]

It would have to have some pretty attractive features for me to buy one. I would want it to perform just as nice as my Sterling, but look better, have better velocity adjustment, and cocker threads, and universal parts would be very nice. Other than that, I don't know why I would move away from a Sterling.

[__Z__]

lol Why is this in the BST?

I am developing a new pump, can easily be configured in a stock class 12g setup. We'll see where I end up this year.

[bobthebot]

The main obstacle that you're going to run into is "What does it do that a Phantom or Sniper does not?"

I think it it would be a better use of energy creating upgrades, parts, or accessories for an existing platform to get the features you want. Phantoms and Snipers are already modular enough that you can turn them into just about any possible configuration with some upgrades.

[redsquirrel]

I’m with Jonnydread, has to be unique. I’m hopeful and patiently awaiting a pump from Nova. If they do make one, I doubt it’ll be stock class, but I’ll just throw a feed on it.

[Jonnydread]

Right, and we still have no idea on MSRP for the Nova pump. While I'm excited to check it out, I feel like it's going to be a hard sell for most folks outside of MCB. I get the nostalgic surge for the N1, but a pump is going to be tricky. That said I'm looking forward to it and will likely buy one.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Tough small market to jump onto. Fit, Finish, Ergonomics, and Performance are going to be key. Price will depend on how well the finished product stacks up against what’s already available. I think the phantom cornered that market for so long it’s going to be tough to beat that with offering something it don’t already. I would honestly buy any new maker specifically designed to play Stock Class because I collect them regardless of price (within reason).

I always thought a blocked out Phantom with custom machining would be a big hit. Think CNC Mag Karta style SC Phantom body’s in crazy Ano and custom Stocks Cool cocker threaded body's built in detents neat aluminum handles that are delrin sleeved with cool mill work and customer choice Ano work like Freeflow.

The way I look at it, It’s got to be a full custom crazy build or a budget marker coming in under the Phantom with similar performance. I think the PRP was close but it’s price point and fit and finish was lack luster.

[flyweightnate]

ASP did the Blockhead bodies but I don't see them in the wild... so they're either long gone or hoarded somewhere.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I remember those I’m thinking something that takes a Phantom valve an guts a Stock valve body slides into like the mag custom body’s giving it different profile options. With built in SC feed like the Gargoyle. You could probably start with retro fit body’s to build capital then offer full custom builds kind of like how Inception got started. Breath new life into the phantom platform without reinventing the wheel.

[Jonnydread]

I'm reminded of the potential release of the Gargoyle v2. While I am on the list and excited about it, I have some reservations about it's efficacy as a profit generator. Gargs are great, but they are really just fancy slide Phantoms and I think a lot of people are going to struggle shelling out 3x+ for one.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Exactly that’s the catch. The reasons they bring crazy money used is due to being rare. If a new one was made or even talk of a new one brings prices down. So a new Gargoyle couldn’t charge what the current resale value of an Original goes for as it’s going to bring the price down the min they go into production. This is why you see machinist doing exclusive drops at ( X ) Number of available markers.

An exclusive high end highly custom good performing SC marker could be a profit maker. I would love to build / design something unique even if I broke even on it.

[Jonnydread]

(within reason)

I call bullshit Charles

[Chuck E Ducky]

Well just protecting the wallet. You know how that BookFace Hype gets out of control. lol we got kids thinking a piece of cloth is worth more then the average player’s entire setup. I don’t believe for a min that the things actually sell for what they claim they do. Like I wouldn’t pay $2k+ for a Gargoyle tho I might get close for the right one…

[RAZRBAKK]

Personally I would love to see a bit of variety in the SC market. Obviously it's niche, so it's a bit risky, but I get tired of really only seeing phantoms and the odd one-off sniper or similar.

Look back at the limited run stuff. Gargoyles, Grey Ghosts, DSPs, they all fetch a pretty penny because they are as functional as a phantom(if not more), but they are unique and way less common.

Feature rich is huge. Most mid level semi's come with an on/off, clamping feedneck, 2 piece barrel, etc. I think you would need to look for equivalents for an SC build.

Just riffing, dual rod pump handle, detents, some type of anti-rollout if possible, AC threads, you catch my drift.

[Jonnydread]

I agree that built-in anti-rollout is a huge feature. Stuff like the ASP mod or the 2008 Grey Ghost breech nubbin should be a standard feature for all pumps.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Agreed barrel bore options and detents are the only route forward a new SC marker should come standard with these options. Cocker threaded would be a + as well but not a l dealbreaker. Just not a proprietary threaded design the world dose not need another barrel thread type.

[Jonnydread]

I wish cocker threads WEREN'T the standard. They're so long and chunky. My favorite are ICD threads, maybe Ion as a runner up.

[Trbo323]

If you want something unique, make a spool valve.

Not that I'd be buying, stock class play infuriates me.

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[Jonnydread]

git gud son

[__Z__]

My design is 100% based around SIMPLICITY and RELIABILITY.....

Ever tried to barrel swab the entire breach of a phantom?
Ever spent hours trying to tune a cocker?
Ever pumped a phantom before and realized how horrific the stroke is compared to a cocker?
Ever had a cocker that was a mini body and realize it needs too aggressive of a spring combination to be a pump?

Imo the STP/Arrow Sterling solved almost all of these issues, sort of.....

Im looking to improve on the simplicity of the sterling, get rid of it's quirky pump over barrel design, integrate it's gas through design, but still not having an HPR, but in 80% of situations if you're playing pump you dont need one (I have a dedicated 800 psi output pressure tank I use with my sterlings).

Like I said, I am interested to start posting things once they are a litte more in CAD, but in the meantime, I am working on incorporating some of my design ideas into some existing custom body sterling designs I have currently.

I think there's a market for a new pump, I plan to use a very bolt together modular design that I believe will help keep the manufacturing costs down because I will be able to use tube aluminum vs large chunk of bar that need to be milled to shape. I am basically taking design ques from all of my favorite marker and combining them into 1. You'll see the STP sterling, ICD PRP, CCM T2F, and CCM J12 basically combined into 1 nelson style split tube marker.

While it's not a dedicated stock class design, a rounded top tube and reversible ASA are design ques that lead it to modulation.

[XEMON]

You posted so cad pictures a while back didn't you?
I like you had (a lot), but an easier design to keep the manufacturing cost down is where things will make a difference.

[__Z__]

I have posted some CAD stuff of the custom ccm j6's I worked on, as well as the stock class feed tubes, and Ive posted a few sterling parts I currently have in the works for my person builds. But I havent posted anything on the design I am working on currently. Trying to do some R&D on the current ones I have to verify some pump design items.

[BLachance75]

Count me in. I’ve been watching what you’ve done so far with Sterlings and I really like where you’re going. The over barrel pump is ok but a CCM round handle would be perfection. Add cocker threads and you’ve got a winner in my book.

[XEMON]

Is there a market?
maybe? ... Probably not a whole lot for anything above $150 $200 top ...

Hier end pumps will be a hard sales, there is enough on the market for people who want to spend the money.

But, make a pump gun people who are not necessarily into pump can buy on a whim to give it a go will be great 👍
It still needs to have enough features to attract people into pump without driving them away after the first time they use it ...

[__Z__]

Have you been following the pump market anywhere other than on MCB by chance? The current market has a TON of headroom. I'm selling decent mill job bodies with CCM parts at 850+, and that's with all used parts.

I think a brand new pump with a decent design, and good manufacturability in the current market would have no issues selling at 700-900.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Agreed especially in the days of $2500 Electos. Especially if you can get truly unique pieces and custom options. Sure your market gets smaller but that don’t mean it isn’t there.

I don’t think Stock Class anything is good for the first time pump player experience at all. It’s to much all at one time. Open class get the feel before you start adding even more handicaps you your play style. There are plenty of great options for this in the budget range to.

I think a sub $1k full custom SC marker is doable if done right and has the performance to back it up. Exclusive fancy Ano with all the cool creative ways to make a modern Stock Class marker in one package.

[XEMON]

This doesn't makes sense to me (not saying your wrong, but I don't get it)
There are lots and lots of really nice pumps for much lower, anything above that is either custom work or really low run.
I don't see a real market for anything other than an updated tracer: cocker threaded with detent, gas through grip with RVA; everything bolted on so you can easily make body kit. Have an alternative breach for magfeed capabilities would be a great addition.

[SignOfZeta]

I’d be interested in a new stock class gun, in theory, sure. Top price would be probably $500 for me.

What I would want is SMALL. You guys with stock class riffles based on Snipers than are two feel long and a foot high, stick feeds and changers pointing in every direction…god bless ya, but I basically want a PGP or PMI-1 or 007 or something like that. You can “add stock class” to any gun but you’ll never make a Sterling as compact as a Splatmaster. If it doesn’t start out small you can’t shrink it. My current gun in this config is a VSC Phantom with 2”’ pump and 6” barrel and a unibody feed. I’d like it to be smaller and lighter.

Integrated feed tube is required, quick change in the grip is *highly* desirable. Performance of pump action should be slightly better than a Phantom.

[__Z__]

So you want a stock class pistol, not a stock class marker. The sterling I am working on (not the design, but the ones I have currently) are very compact if you consider the fact that it's not a pistol, final form will be probably 2-3 inches shorter in overall length compared to a typical sterling. I eliminated the extra pump rod length the original design built in, and the handle is shorter as well.

End of the day I guess this all depends on if you want a stock class pistol or marker.

As far as cost goes, have you seen manufacturing costs in 2022-2023? Im a design engineer at manufacturing facility. Unless a major manufacturer comes out with something, or the person behind them also owns their own machine centers, there's 0 chance of producing anything decent for a 500 sales cost.

Possibly if it was manufactured in CHINA, but even then, that's a stretch. Ide go as far to say that anything small batch cant be done at that price and make any sort of profit. Even if you're machining it yourself, your time is not free.

Maybe that just means it's a dead idea, who knows?

Trying to not sound like a debby downer, but be a realist at the same time, it's a challenging feat.

[SignOfZeta]

I love Sterlings, I have two. They are possibly the best pumps ever, IMO, and therefore probably the best guns ever. Only a full block CCM would be in the same league.

However the “stock class” versions I have seen are comically huge. Like a nine passenger SUV with one dude in it. The body/grip combo is just too tall and the feed is usually some dumb stick thing that fits into a direct feed making it even bigger. Shorting it will only help so much, it’s too tall.

I agree that it’s hard to imagine a new design made in the USA at a profit at $500. However new Phantoms are still under $500 even after massive price hikes. If the design is good it could happen.

What about a single extrusion for all tubes including the barrel, 3D print the grip frame (on the good stuff, no rubbish) and commonly available internals (from EV or Autocockerparts.com)?

[XEMON]

I know what you mean about manufacturing cost & being positive ...
I've had a few attachment I designed for a few different guns and when I looked at manufacturing cost for actually production (small run, maybe 100 or 200 ...) It was so insane that I stopped right there.