Some legal advise

[Trbo323]

So, I kind of doubt anyone here will have any exact advise but I hoping someone will at least know where I can go look for an answer

My wife is the director for a childcare center, the center is on the property and in a separate building that belongs to a church, the church wants use of the building on the weekend "the gym" in specific.

The childcare center has some stuff in the gym, nothing major, tables and chairs for the kids, some toys etc. The problem is the church wants EVERYTHING out of the gym for them to use it. To the point that they don't want any signs for the childcare center to be on the walls, basically they want it to look like the childcare center doesn't exist

So this last weekend the church came through and took everything out of the gym and just piled it in one of the nearby classrooms. Rugs, lockers, chairs, toys, everything, they didn't even try to put anything back and some of this stuff is not light either.

My wife and her assistant had to come in on Saturday to basically be movers to clean up after the church and get stuff back to a spot where they can actually open on Monday. Since it's childcare she doesn't have the largest budget to work with in order to pay her workers to come in and she didn't want to ruin their weekends anyway.

Apparently, this idea of shared use is in the contract the childcare center has for the building. My understanding is that it was insisted by the church that it be in there. So here is my few questions

1) is it even legal for a commercial property owner to put a shared use Claus in a contract?

2) where does "use" become "abuse"?



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[Paintslinger16]

I got some questions, one, is the childcare center part of the church? Or is it a separate entity leasing space from the church?
two, normally a church has a Board or Council or Vestry, that oversees the operations, does this church have anything like that?
three, have you read or have a copy of the contract?

[Cdn_Cuda]

Start this off with the not a lawyer statement.

This is an interesting one. The best thing to do is look up case law for similar circumstances, which can be quite an effort. From an outside perspective it looks like the Church wants to use the space and isn't particularly interested in having the childcare space used anymore, could be due to a change in the church leadership or committees or it might just be a user group and the church isn't aware of how the situation was handled. Regardless, it's a pretty low thing to do.

I think the biggest concern is the handling and moving of the daycare's property. Shared use is one thing, but simply taking all the daycare's things, dumping them in another location and leaving it for your wife to deal with is another issue completely. I would think this would be outside of shared use, but again you'd need to do some research on it. You'd think is just common decency the church would at least move the stuff back in, you know, being good church-going people and all.

Unfortunately getting into a legal dispute with the church may end up with the church ending the agreement to provide space for childcare. Maybe look into making some large rolling carts that the daycare's things can be placed on and it makes moving the equipment in and out easier. In my work we take a lot of equipment out of town and have everything on wood carts with large castors so they can easily and quickly roll in and roll out of venues.

I'd give benefit of doubt to the church though, and reach out to whoever is in charge and ask about the weekend usage. It may be an outside group, or run by someone that's just ignorant. Bring up the situation, explain the difficulty it caused and see if there's a way the daycare stuff can be stored better on site, or is easier to move, or if they group using the facility can put it all back when they're done (which should be the easiest solution). Try to use the carrot before using the stick.

[Cyberpyr8]

The thing about the church is they are probably using volunteers to do all the moving and setup. I would talk to the pastor or whoever is in charge of using the space and tell them that it's fine if they want to use the space but that it is a business and you don't have the staff to re-setup everything each week. If they want to use the space they need to try and return it to the way it was after they are done.

I have attended churches where we used schools or rented space like a movie theater. Typically they (the church staff and volunteers) would move what they need and return it once they are done. Maybe they didn't communicate that it needs to be cleaned up to the volunteers or they just didn't have people hang out afterwards to do so. But I would ask them if they could at least return the items back into the gym so that her staff doesn't have to do it all. If that doesn't work or go well I would start looking into what your rights are under the lease. Basically, you can put clauses in for just about anything. But I would suspect there's something saying they need to return the items when they're done.

[Jonnydread]

I can't speak to the legal side of things, but the way the church is behaving about this certainly doesn't feel very Christian to me.

[Trbo323]

I got some questions, one, is the childcare center part of the church? Or is it a separate entity leasing space from the church?
two, normally a church has a Board or Council or Vestry, that oversees the operations, does this church have anything like that?
three, have you read or have a copy of the contract?

1)Separate entity leasing from the church
2) yes, they are the main force behind wanting to use this space
3) no, I'm just doing this on the side to try and help out my wife and the center, besides my wife being the director (she is about a month into the position) and my daughter attending the center, I'm not affiliated

. From an outside perspective it looks like the Church wants to use the space and isn't particularly interested in having the childcare space used anymore,

You are reading it 100% correct. The church wants the childcare out.

Long story short, there's the childcare center and the elementary school program (private school) originally the church wanted to keep the elementary program and kick out the childcare. The elementary program makes a profit, the childcare program mainly caters to low income households and operates on such a tight budget that it really doesn't turn a profit. I'll talk about this more a little further down

I think the biggest concern is the handling and moving of the daycare's property. Shared use is one thing, but simply taking all the daycare's things, dumping them in another location and leaving it for your wife to deal with is another issue completely. I would think this would be outside of shared use, but again you'd need to do some research on it. You'd think is just common decency the church would at least move the stuff back in, you know, being good church-going people and all.

O don't get me started on the people, they are a piece of work for sure. You bring up a good point about the property, I haven't thought about it that way

Unfortunately getting into a legal dispute with the church may end up with the church ending the agreement to provide space for childcare.

This is basically already in the works. So the church wanted the childcare out but the elementary program to stay (all about that money!) But the previous director of the childcare program and the current director of the elementary program were not willing to split up the two programs and elected to find a new location for both. They have found a new church (church 2 from here out) to move everything to but the problem is it's not a fast process. Setting up a building for childcare takes a LOT more than people realize in order to stay within code. They are hoping to be in the new space in about a year, that's as quick as they can.

However, the elementary program is largely already moved. Idk what was already in place at church 2 for them but it seems they have largely managed to move already. So basically church 1 got the opposite of what they originally wanted, the elementary program is already gone while the childcare program is still using the space. It seems church 1 already had plans for the space and wanted the childcare out ASAP. When it became clear that ASAP couldn't happen they were still unwilling to change those plans

I'd give benefit of doubt to the church though, and reach out to whoever is in charge and ask about the weekend usage. It may be an outside group, or run by someone that's just ignorant. Bring up the situation, explain the difficulty it caused and see if there's a way the daycare stuff can be stored better on site, or is easier to move, or if they group using the facility can put it all back when they're done (which should be the easiest solution). Try to use the carrot before using the stick.

Some could be ignorance but there's no way all is, this is just the worst thing that's happening. it's all in house. The church office is literally 200 feet from the childcare center.

My wife has already had to fight with them over some really stupid things like getting a non working sink fixed, getting the Internet turned on and more currently, the church doesn't want the childcare van parked on the property over the weekend. This is not a parking space issue either.


[QUOTE=Cyberpyr8;n311264]The thing about the church is they are probably using volunteers to do all the moving and setup. I would talk to the pastor or whoever is in charge of using the space and tell them that it's fine if they want to use the space but that it is a business and you don't have the staff to re-setup everything each week. If they want to use the space they need to try and return it to the way it was after they are done.

I have attended churches where we used schools or rented space like a movie theater. Typically they (the church staff and volunteers) would move what they need and return it once they are done.

Yeah this situation is basically the opposite. The church owns the building and the childcare center is the tenant

Maybe they didn't communicate that it needs to be cleaned up to the volunteers or they just didn't have people hang out afterwards to do so. But I would ask them if they could at least return the items back into the gym so that her staff doesn't have to do it all. If that doesn't work or go well I would start looking into what your rights are under the lease. Basically, you can put clauses in for just about anything. But I would suspect there's something saying they need to return the items when they're done.

This is kind of where we are at. My wife is trying to get them to see that this is not ok and I'm hopeful that it will get resolved in a decent way. Basically they are using the space however they want with no consideration to the tenant. Idk for sure but it looks like they are doing some kind of kids camp and that's why they want every single mention of the childcare center removed. They may see it as competition. Really the only reason I can see that they want the van off the property over the weekend is because it has the name of the childcare center on it. But they don't consider that removing it requires people to shuffle, someone has to drive it somewhere else and they then need someone else to go get them which is taking people and time away from the center.

And yes I know you can put a lot of things in the contract but that doesn't make them legal. If you rent a house from me, I can write into the contract that you need to allow me access to bury Mar's dead body in the basement, that doesn't make it so you have to legally allow me to do something like that.

But I'm wondering where that line is? Is it that the tenant CAN allow use of the space by the owner? Or that they MUST allow use of the space?

What about the property that is in the room if they must allow use?

I can't speak to the legal side of things, but the way the church is behaving about this certainly doesn't feel very Christian to me.

You're telling me. Even before my wife was director that was fairly clear. Thankfully the place they are moving to is much more accommodating and is excited to have them coming in but they are currently in the construction process for that. It's getting there, slowly.

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[Cyberpyr8]

We have been at 2 different churches where there was a daycare using the church property. In both instances it was constant friction between the two. The daycare would move stuff out of the rooms that we needed for church services and vice versa. It's hard because churches usually start out leasing the space because they need the income and don't always need the room during the week, until they grow then they don't want to share it any longer. In both of the cases I saw, the daycare eventually shut down or moved out.

At least there's a light at the end of the tunnel with the new place. Maybe if the church knows they only need to clean up after themselves for a period of time you all can come to some agreement. I would think that there should be some kind of stipulation of what they can do or how they should leave everything when they are done. Legal or not, if it says they need to clean up in the contract, you can hold them to it like they are holding the daycare to "allow" them the use of the space. At least it is in writing and they agreed to do it. I would think there's something in there about it if nothing else, to protect the church from anything. But it might benefit the daycare in this instance. Really look it over and see what was agreed upon. That will help them decide what they can do.

But remember, churches are made up of (imperfect) people and they don't always do the right thing like they should. Unfortunately I have also seen many do the wrong thing. Hopefully you can come to a peaceful agreement until they can move out.

[Seajay]

I found this interesting. Normally since a tenant rents the property and building from the owner the contract controls what you can and cannot do. In this case it doesn't sound like a normal lease contract, not sure if that is true. Churches are weird since they have a ton of exclusions in the law because they are a church.

The best non legal advice to give is to study up on the contract that was put in place and figure out where you stand there. You can argue points that are not mentioned, but otherwise try and lean on the parts of the contract that protect your use of the space. If there is something in there that essentially gives them the right to kick you out, not much you can do but try to act like human beings

[Grendel]

Get a contract lawyer to review the lease agreement who is familiar with Title 59 RCW LANDLORD AND TENANT, Title 62A RCW UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE and Title 63 RCW PERSONAL PROPERTY (these are Washington State Laws). I am sure I am missing some other applicable state law and regulation because I am not a lawyer and definitely not a lawyer in Washington familiar with Contract Law. I hate we have to do this but the laws and statutes and how and when they apply is a specialists territory and we could cost you and your wife a lot of wasted time, effort and money by giving advice beyond get a lawyer to take look at the contract. I could not imaging it taking more then a couple hours (billable) to review the contract and give you some broad options. Last year the typical contract lawyer billing rate is $220/hr for Washington State
.

[Paintslinger16]

1)Separate entity leasing from the church
2) yes, they are the main force behind wanting to use this space
3) no, I'm just doing this on the side to try and help out my wife and the center, besides my wife being the director (she is about a month into the position) and my daughter attending the center, I'm not affiliated

Well sense you are already moving it’s moot point, you as a leasee should have rights that prevents anything like what they did, unless of course it was in the contract.
Yeah normal power corrupt entity, this would have been where you go complain but sense they behind it, good thing you moving!

my wife the oldest employee at the church, got fired when the new big guy came in and found out she wasn’t a member of the congregation! His Karma was his next victim was another employee that happened to be “not out” and he was harassed for it, ironically he could have testified what was happening to my wife the year prior.

in the end if you are getting out that’s the best money, unless you get a pro Bono lawyer that’s willing to take the case, the church will have way more money to fight it and not many will take on the church.

[flyweightnate]

If the church is truly, blatantly unreasonable, find out which denomination they belong to. Hopefully there's a cooler head on that board who can encourage a more diplomatic resolution.

But yeah, lawyers and contact law too. Because sometimes it just hits the fan.

[joshs]

This is not legal advice and no attorney client relationship is expressed or implied by this post. (I'm also not barred in Washington, so I can't even provide legal advice there).

Agreements in the US are generally governed by the "four corners" of the contract, which means whatever is in the contract controls the agreement. Most states have some case law on what types of oral statements can be considered part of the agreement, but these are generally excluded under the parol evidence rule.

So, you're going to need a copy of the agreement to know if what the church is asking is acceptable under the contract. Even if it's not, they may have a termination clause that could be exercised to the daycare's detriment if the daycare attempts to force the issue under the contract. The daycare would need a Washington attorney (I'd recommend one with some experience dealing with commercial leases) if they plan to attempt to enforce their rights under the agreement.

[coyote]

In Washington the only "shared use" I can find refers to accessing paths or water.

I would argue that the church doesn't want" shared use" of the gym. I would suggest they want intermittent "exclusive use" by their behavior.

I would present them with a bill for the work they caused. I would let them know returning things to the way they found them might go a long way to maintaining a civil relationship. That might even be in scriptures somewhere.

[Trbo323]

Alright thanks everyone, you all gave me some good starting points to work with. My wife has been taking with the church through the week so we will see what happens this weekend and maybe reassess.

And while yes it's a good thing they are moving, the problem is if the church kicks them out too soon, that will put most of the staff out of work as they are hourly and the money comes from the payments from families. No childcare= no money coming in.

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[neuwirth]

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