Speculating on paintball markers/gear as an investment.

[Bonjwa]

I'm always thinking about what might rise in value as paintball as a sport is very young and a lot of designs and ideas existed in extremely limited production and for a very short time. A great recipe for appreciation. I could have guessed autocockers would have risen in value, they were dirt cheap when I took my hiatus from the sport (~2010) but I would have thought led/lcd/ir3 angels would have blown up more then they did as well.

I know investment is a dirty word in hobby communities but I'm wondering what are your thoughts on what will rise in value (c'mon you know you've thought about it).

My thoughts at the moment.

- Mint, stock Ion, with box and all accessories. Iconic to the sport and these were bought by kids and modified/beat to shit. I see this being similar to how clean early honda civics are becoming valuable.

- Mid era matrixes. This is already starting to happen but a clean, stock DM6/DM7/PM6//PM7/PM8/Minion is going for INSANELY cheap at the moment and they are iconic from the "golden era". This might be rose tinted glasses to me but I suspect it is to many other people as well. These also have the selling point of being completely viable to play with at a competitive level despite being old.

- Clean masks. I don't really have much of a sample size for these so they might be crazy already but masks tend to get used and beat up. Any kind of reasonable condition E-vents, Ir3s, original profilers, those weird pmi masks are going to ride the nostalgia train to value town.

- Those angels I was talking about. These markers were ~$2k originally and represented the pinnacle of what was available. I think there is room here. Private label/special annos are already pretty silly prices but I think these things are headed up. I'll be looking to pick one up soon because I fear getting priced out. People are paying absolutely ridiculous prices for stock oracle/black magic etc cockers and in my eyes these are much nicer.

Thoughts? I'm very curious to hear what everyone else thinks has some potential.

[Toestr]

Well you missed on on the peak of JT fever last year. Anything and everything JT was hot. It was nearly impossible to get a used proshield for under $50. I got mine because it was hidden in the second picture of a Kijiji ad. If it were in the featured picture I never would have got it.

It'll be harder for electronic guns to appreciate like old mechs did because of parts. There were dozons of companies making cocker and mag parts, which don't go bad like electronics. If your hammer or sear on your cocker wears out, buy an aftermarket one and you're good for at least another decade. Your solenoid goes on your DM, good luck finding one that lasts. At least with older guns you might have the space to plumb a common one in somehow. With the newer guns with proprietary noids you'll be hard pressed to find something else that fits.



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[Bonjwa]

Well you missed on on the peak of JT fever last year. Anything and everything JT was hot. It was nearly impossible to get a used proshield for under $50. I got mine because it was hidden in the second picture of a Kijiji ad. If it were in the featured picture I never would have got it.

It'll be harder for electronic guns to appreciate like old mechs did because of parts. There were dozons of companies making cocker and mag parts, which don't go bad like electronics. If your hammer or sear on your cocker wears out, buy an aftermarket one and you're good for at least another decade. Your solenoid goes on your DM, good luck finding one that lasts. At least with older guns you might have the space to plumb a common one in somehow. With the newer guns with proprietary noids you'll be hard pressed to find something else that fits.



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I specifically didn't mention proflex stuff because, yeah, seems insane. Nice pickup. I wish I had bought every set of clear upper lowers that were floating around back then.

Parts are a big deal but I feel that makes a good working example even more valuable. I'm looking for a clean EM7 like a mad man but these things just don't exist. Maybe people will begin making legacy parts as they seem to be for the mechs? Hard to say but good point.

[autococker04]

I think the main thing is that guns now are flat out better than guns in the past. There has just been more time to engineer around weak points. So unless it’s private label and you find just the right buyer, basically anything is going to be worth less than what it was new.

Masks are a whole different story, and I don’t understand it.

Edit: All that being said, you can make decent side money flipping guns if you can find gear going for way cheaper than the current market.

[Bonjwa]

I think the main thing is that guns now are flat out better than guns in the past. There has just been more time to engineer around weak points. So unless it’s private label and you find just the right buyer, basically anything is going to be worth less than what it was new.

Masks are a whole different story, and I don’t understand it.

The better engineering example is meaningless, the value is based on pure emotion. I take it you aren't a car person but there are tons of examples of old, mechanically inferior vehicles selling for well over msrp. Things like Angels are going to appreciate because there are none being made, they are beautiful and they had massive presence in the sport for a long while.

[Ecapnation]

To go off of the above second half of his post...

Anything that has a solenoid that isn't off the shelf is likely going to tank.... Intimidators are gaining some decent collector numbers because someone found another source for the solenoid.

However.... Angels have a larger problem. You can't service half the gun. Ram leaks? Buy a new ram. Yeah there were solutions about the web on making them rebuildable but mostly that's something left to high level techs.

Irony about dye is in there own laziness never changing the solenoid made most of their markers age very well. Look at planet eclipse markers..... I had to retire an 07 ego on 2010 because I couldn't find a solenoid for it.

[Bonjwa]

To go off of the above second half of his post...

Anything that has a solenoid that isn't off the shelf is likely going to tank.... Intimidators are gaining some decent collector numbers because someone found another source for the solenoid.

However.... Angels have a larger problem. You can't service half the gun. Ram leaks? Buy a new ram. Yeah there were solutions about the web on making them rebuildable but mostly that's something left to high level techs.

Irony about dye is in there own laziness never changing the solenoid made most of their markers age very well. Look at planet eclipse markers..... I had to retire an 07 ego on 2010 because I couldn't find a solenoid for it.

The people who want them will find a way. That's always been the case. I think the value of having them running properly is probably overrated anyways. Certainly would add to the value but most of these are collector's pieces and will probably never see field play.

I'll admit I didn't know that about the solenoids but that's just another selling point! Shame about the ego I love that model as well.

[Ecapnation]

The people who want them will find a way. That's always been the case. I think the value of having them running properly is probably overrated anyways. Certainly would add to the value but most of these are collector's pieces and will probably never see field play.

I'll admit I didn't know that about the solenoids but that's just another selling point! Shame about the ego I love that model as well.

Not necessarily.....

I had to tell me crew stop taking any angels in at events as trade..... We literally can not sell them. No market. The last lcd we had come in which was clean but needed a ram. We ended up parting out everything usable and scrapping the rest.

[Bonjwa]

This SHOULD stop me from looking for one, but probably won't lol. Sad to hear that. Hopefully someone can step up and provide/manufacture new parts.

[Siress]

Nothing.

I'm not aware of, and do not expect, any paintball gear to rise to the level of an investment that competes with traditional financial investments; as an example - the S&P 500. You might get lucky with a short-term change in value, but nothing as repeatable or sustainable.

Consider a $1000 purchase in 2005, which is about what I paid for a decked to the gills Impulse. Consider the cost to maintain it; new solenoid, new seals, new eye ribbons, lugging it around all of these years... Then consider that S&P would have turned that into ~$4,300 today; even subtracting out the 15% tax, that's still ~$3600. I've never seen gear grow in value anywhere close to that rate.

[Bonjwa]

Nothing.

I'm not aware of, and do not expect, any paintball gear to rise to the level of an investment that competes with traditional financial investments; as an example - the S&P 500. You might get lucky with a short-term change in value, but nothing as repeatable or sustainable.

Consider a $1000 purchase in 2005, which is about what I paid for a decked to the gills Impulse. Consider the cost to maintain it; new solenoid, new seals, new eye ribbons, lugging it around all of these years... Then consider that S&P would have turned that into ~$4,300 today; even subtracting out the 15% tax, that's still ~$3600. I've never seen gear grow in value anywhere close to that rate.

This is true and I'm not at all implying this should be a serious investment strategy but it's fun to speculate on what is going to end up being worth something.

[ATBen]

Nxt and sft Shockers are commanding higher than normal prices, so maybe early SP gear will start rising in value. They made everything so it's hard to say.

I've also seen that 1990s era plastic brass eagle stuff selling for higher than it used to, especially if it's in original packaging. I had an Eagle 68 in the box that I bought for $20 and flipped it for $50. An early NIB BE/Z-leader mask I picked up in a trade sold for $75.

I guess Gen X is into buying back their toys from their teenaged years? I've seen the same thing happen with retro video games like SNES and Genesis, 10 years ago it was Atari and NES.

[euangelion]

I always refer to the old adapted Richard Branson joke:

"If you want to be a Millionaire, start with a billion dollars and invest it in paintball"

This industry has a habit of slitting its own throat over and over so like some have said there can be short term wins but in the long haul I don't think there's really a store of value in most of the niche and/or defunct goods that come and go

[Siress]

These things are always based on nostalgia. Especially "performance" items of yesteryear. Cars are the easiest example. An NSX from the mid 90s is going to struggle against a modern F150 on the track, and consume more gas while doing so. Yet, people foam at the mouth over the nostalgia and are willing to pay 6 figures for the pleasure of bringing it to life.


edit: that said, I chose to keep the items that mattered to me. I still own that decked out impulse, and still pull it out of the box on occasion. It's value to me is purely nostalgic. For others, I think they'll forget about most of the paintball gear in their later years and instead focus on the people and events they crossed along the way. I'd look to jerseys, patches, posters, magazines, videos... those might have real value someday. Again, I wouldn't speculate that it beats the S&P, but I think they'll rise in value. Then there's the agglet side of paintball - what the new comers actually playing the sport will find cool - like our old jerseys. Who the hell knows what they like? It won't be PGPs, I can tell you that much. If I could choose a product to make a come back it'd be decent paintballs.

[ATBen]

Challenge accepted. I'm going to make kids enjoy PGP battles again. They need to learn of the butt puckering fear that comes from changing 12 grams on a PGP during a firefight!

[Siress]

You have my full support Realizing that you need both a 12g and a fresh 10rd tube in the middle of a firefight... and you're all out of both. Happened a lot. Learned to be intimidating, and strategies of sacrificing yourself for the team. These days people just call themselves out, which makes sense if your defining presence on the field is the non-stop spray of paint.

[MrBarraclough]

There are two opposing forces acting upon the value of rarer, older markers.

1. Rarity, notoriety, and nostalgia can increase the value. A marker that a now 40-something once drooled over as a teenager may be worth spending a chunk of that disposable income he now has that he could only dream about 15-20 years ago. Scarcity may motivate collectors to acquire markers while the can, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and further pushes up prices.
2. Rarer, older markers, especially those that relied upon proprietary (or at least specifically fabricated) parts, become increasingly difficult to keep in working order. Manufacturers rarely think in terms of super long term longevity, as they aren't likely to make more money off the fact that the marker will be running 20 years from now. And even if it did add to the marker's original value, that could easily be swamped by other, countervailing design considerations. So some markers relied upon bespoke solenoids or other specially fabricated parts and have tight internal geometries designed to accomodate only those parts, because that was cheaper and/or easier to do at the time, and "Uses commodity parts so you can keep it running for years even after we have gone out of business!" isn't a selling point worth slapping on the box. Even among wall hangers, a marker that you couldn't play with or just show off in the back yard if you wanted to is worth significantly less than one that is fully functional. There are certain model Egos and Angels, for example, that are a failed solenoid away from becoming expensive paperweights, and that puts downward pressure on their values. They are great pickups for those with the knowledge and access to replacement parts to keep them running, but that is a relatively small market. Hell, even with the venerable and bulletproof Automag, there are a certain few critical parts that have a finite and ever dwindling supply.

Sometimes one wins out, sometimes the other does.

Also, one way in which I think the paintball gear / classic car analogy starts to break down is that with classic cars, they are usually still pretty impressive to non-enthusiasts. Obviously, they are far more impressive to enthusiasts who fully appreciate how rare a particular example might be or understand how it is historically significant in the evolutionary history of car design. But everyone is at least a little bit familiar with cars, and except for some esoteric oddballs most are reasonably impressive to casual observers. So the circle of people a collector can show off his classic cars to is much, much larger than the circle of people who would be impressed (or care at all) about a collection of rare and interesting paintball markers. Probably by orders of magnitude. And while things you can show off to only fellow enthusiasts are still cool and appealing, they aren't as appealing or valuable as things you can show off to practically anyone.

[sniper97]

Besides CCM and older custom cockers (Twister, Besales...), not much goes up in value in paintball.

[Siress]

and even then, the value relative to a safe financial investment has declined significantly.

[sniper97]

I paid $300ish for my S6 back in 2009, maybe worth $900+. About a 9.5% annual return, totally unexpected. My return is playing paintball. Not much of a return collecting paintball markers.

[Siress]

Agreed, re: value is in the playing. For perspective, the annualized rate of return for S&P since July of 2009 is 13.90%. And you probably have one of the best 'paintball investments' to compare against. Glad I got to shoot an S6 back in the day...like butter.