Maximum Shots per 12 gram

[Ironnerd]

I remember seeing a video on this topic. It was about squeezing the greatest number of (useful) shots from Nelson based marker using a single 12 gram. I think he got 30ish

I have a 12g changer
I have a Bushmaster

I want to see how many shots I can get from a 12g, but I'm not sure where to start. I remember filling the valve chamber with a spacer, and something about a lightened hammer... then it all goes foggy.

[Toestr]

Not an expert on this, but iirc the general rule is devolumize for unregulated, volumize for regulated.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[Nish]

Start here https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/p...ers-group-info

It depends a lot on what you consider a usable shot and what fps you want to start at. Painthappy hates me and won't repost the from the Attic episode where he built a nelson out of spare parts and got 55 some odd shots out of it.

[Lt. head-shot]

There used to be a thread about this in the Redux forum. I believe the record was 53 shots? People have consistently gotten to 40 with the right springs and hot weather.

[Ironnerd]

Start here https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forum/p...ers-group-info

It depends a lot on what you consider a usable shot and what fps you want to start at. Painthappy hates me and won't repost the from the Attic episode where he built a nelson out of spare parts and got 55 some odd shots out of it.

Booyah!
That's the ticket!

Mui-Domo, Nish-san.

[Painthappy]

Didn't I give you that gun? I don't remember what I did with it. Yeah, I remember that.

[Ironnerd]

What was the bit about using a light hammer? That's stuck in my mind for some reason.

[Axel]

I feel like back on MCB 2.0, one of the engineering types had calculated the theoretical, 100% efficient maximum number of shots based on the stored energy in a 12 g at a given FPS and temperature, but I don't recall the answer

[Chuck E Ducky]

Heat, how fast follow up shots are taken, setup, like barrel length. Just Play style is a big part of 12g efficiency. There are so many variables.

Someone pointed out the possibility that elevation plays a big part in Efficiency. I could definitely see that.

I get most stock Phantom setups @ 280-300fps 60*+ to shot over 42 shots while playing very easily. At a lower FPS letting the 12g cook over the chrono you could easily see another tube. But it’s not really practical for actual play because you can’t really play like that.

[Ironnerd]

I'm not really going for a record or anything, I would just like to squeeze a few more shots before changing out my 12g.

Here in Georgia, heat is not much of an issue. Our high humidity should also help as humid air is less dense than dry air, thus creating a greater pressure difference between ambient and the contents of the powerlet.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Shoot slower between shots, better fitting paint to bore. 10-12” barrel is great for efficiency. If you can get the 12g vertical you can pick up some shots. You could experiment with different springs. Check to ensure your bolt tip oring is sealing nicely to whatever barrel you are using. (Can’t remember if the Bushmaster hast a bolt tip oring) This makes a big difference on the Phantoms.

[Ironnerd]

Barrel length and springs are a check.
Like my Razorback, however, the barrel is fixed on the Bushmaster and the ASA is horizontal. So that will be a challenge.

The only marker I have right now that will hold the 12g vertical, and will accept freak inserts (to match barrel to paint) is the ER2... And it has a 6" (±) barrel. I think it's a given that I'm going to mess with that pistol though.

Still no matter how this works out, its a wonderful excuse to mess about with paintball markers.

[Jordan]

Glenn Palmer reports 58 shots from a scratch built prototype that his brass markers are based off of. No idea on velocity.

[Nish]

I generally change after about 40 (full feedtube +3 10rnd tubes) shots on my Gargoyle as I get about 45 shots starting in the 270's and considering anything above 240 usable.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I get less shots out of my Gargoyle then my Phantom. Not by much but all things the same barrel paint velocity same day w/ both setup as VSC. I find the phantom gets a few more shots before it starts dropping velocity. Now that I have an in-line valve body and the phantom is sipping a lil liquid they are about the same I’m thinking.

I do the same thing tho I count tubes not shots. I’m changing out at 42 because it won’t get 52. But I can get upwards of 45ish if I’m shooting slow and it’s a warm day. But it throws off My count. So I change early.

[Nish]

Yeah, there are some games that are either on a hot day, or where action is a little slower that I'll hit 55ish shots before changing but I try to stick to full tube and 3 refills to be on the safe side.

[Ironnerd]

I ran an informal test this morning. Since I don't have a chony, it does not mean a whole lot, but I was curious, and I wanted to see how many of them actually worked. Although I just did this to compare shots/12g, I noticed a few other items that I made note of.

All markers were operated from a 12g in a drop-out and were fed Valken paint by a Sport Shot hopper.

• The Tiger Shark and Razorback III used a rear ASA
• The Sniper III used a bottom line
• The Spyder used the vertical ASA
• The ER2 used the in-grip 12 g adapter.

Temperature was about 18º C, no wind

Shots per 12g
Razorback III: 35
Tiger Shark: 30
Sniper III: 30
Spyder: 20
ER2: 15

Pump Effort
Spyder: duh
Razorback III: super smooth
ER2: Surprisingly nice. Would be better with a larger pump handle (being printed as we speak)
Sniper III: Slightly heavier than the Razorback, and it's a good idea to push on the pump-handle when you shoot to keep the breach fully closed
Tiger Shark: Like pumping lead.

Barrel to paint
Razorback III: Smallest bore. no rollouts thanks to a bit of nail polish at the breach.
Spyder:
Sniper III: Had some roll-outs, but that can be fixed with some smaller inserts
Tiger Shark
ER2: No roll-outs, the marker has a second ball detent in the barrel.

Noise level
Tiger Shark: quietest - like freaky quiet
Sniper III
Razor Back III
Spyder
ER2: loudest

Operation
Spyder: It's a STBB with an electro trigger. Point and go. I did have to consciously get my finger away form the trigger to avoid multiple shots per pull.
Razorback III and Sniper III: kind of a tie. Each did some things better than others, but on balance they were all really easy to use
ER2: That darn pump handle is just too small.
Tiger Shark: Double Feed galore.

Accuracy
Spyder: Really easy to hit the target (a 2.4 liter cranberry juice bottle at 15 meters)
Razorback III
Tiger Shark
Sniper III: I think the velocity is set too high. The balls were acting really strangely out of this marker.
ER2: The sight picture is weird, but after a bit I was able to start hitting the target about every other shot.

I have to say I was really impressed with the Razorback. i forgot what a sweet little marker this thing was - This will probably become my default pump marker (we'll see how it matches up against the Bushmaster)
I had a lot of fun walking the trigger (for about 5 or 6 shots) on a electro-semi-franken-Spyder on a 12 g. Just absolutely ridiculous.

Most amazing of all is that all the markers worked, and not one ball was chopped.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I feel like it’s hard to beat the Phantom when it comes to 12g performance. Especially the newer ones that use a smaller overall bore barrel that fits today’s paint better. Price’s have gone way up on them since extreme took over. But they still are one of my favorite markers for SC play. I have like 5 phantoms in various forms that will do over 40+ shots as long as it’s 60*+ and that’s leaving room for playing variables shooting 280-300fps to. So not just over the chrono numbers. You could easily see 50+ on a warm day and chronographing down if you were really trying to stretch it out. Lately I have been running ASP detents and over boring my SC markers to counter the inconsistencies in paint today. I take a lil hit on efficiency but I’m still getting a consistent 42 shots and I can shoot the super brittle stuff without any worries about barrel breaks. Eliminating the roll outs and double feeds make the phantom idiot proof and super easy to shoot is just a added bonus.

[coyote]

I have pulled 52 shots shots above 248 fps off a stock Dye era buzzard.

I did everything I could to max out that number;

It was an August afternoon.
It was the heaviest 12 gram in the box.
The paint to bore match was exquisite.
I allowed a long wait between shots to let the valve train come back up to temp.
I had tuned the first shot velocity down to about 270.
Every shot was taken over a big red Chrono.

During normal playing conditions that marker was good for 32 to 40 shots in warm weather. in theory it was an exceptionally efficient marker. In practice it was average. Most of the stock class guns I have used fall pretty reliably in that window.

[Ironnerd]

It never occurred to me to actually weigh the 12g's.

Well... Another rabbit hole for me to explore.

[coyote]

Yup.

12 grams are filled somewhat inconsistently. Paint is inconsistent. Weather varies.

I'm pretty sure "most efficient" is so situation based that repeating it is a pipe dream.

[Ironnerd]

And boom... Mind (partially) blown.

Logically not all 12g's are actually 12 grams, but I never thought to WEIGH the crazy things (LOL!)

Now I want to compare performance differences caused by density altitude.