pneumag history

[rawbutter]

For whatever reason, a number of people have asked me over the years how I came up with the idea for the pneumag, as if I invented the design in the first place. Which is silly, of course. But it did make me realize that a lot of that history is buried in the AO archives now, which is annoying to search. Looking for information is made even more difficult because for a long time, pneumags were kind of an underground thing. If I'm remembering this correctly, some company made a prototype design and filed a patent very early on, and so whenever someone else tried to make another frame or even write up a how-to thread, those were quickly shot down. Information was only shared through private messages for a long time, and those aren't searchable.

I still think it would be nice to have a comprehensive history somewhere, however. So I'd like to make a thread here. I'm going to write down what I can remember, so if you have anything to add, please comment below and I'll put it in. And if I'm wrong about something, please correct me.

This will obviously be a work in progress for a while. Once I have enough details, maybe I'll make a video to sum up everything.

Edit: I've got different versions of this thread in a few places, so I'm going to keep the details in this Google Doc.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing





Questions I Have:

• Who wrote the first how-to instruction list?
• What other valves/pistons were used before everyone settled with the MSV-2 and MPA-3?
• When did Luke start selling the T-Rex? Or his foregrip?

[minigscanada]

What about chaz? His setup is pretty tricked out

http://www.chazmiller.com/projects/automag.html

[rawbutter]

That's really cool. I haven't seen his before. It's a shame there isn't a date on the website.

[Brokeass_baller]

That's electropneumatic though.

[superman]

I could be wrong but i believe there was some stink between the hair valve and the gforce frame. I want to say it was based around the patent.

msv2 and mpa3 were the go to because that is what the early builds used. There were a few how to's that used them and that is what people stuck with. as far as who was selling. I believe air soldier was the easy supply for those type of projects.

[Brokeass_baller]

Tracker Yeah, that's basically right. G-Force eventually released a rendition for the Automag, but from what I remember, it was far too late, and not any better than the homebrew services offer by AO members at the time.

[Brokeass_baller]

People forget, Deadlywind got their start with Automag bodies. The Karta, Dallara, and maybe one or two more. Then they got into Ion stuff and CF barrels and blew up into the paintball mainstream.

[rawbutter]

Ah...so it was Gforce and not PTP that had the first patent. Gotcha. I'll fix that.

[rawbutter]

I could be wrong but i believe there was some stink between the hair valve and the gforce frame. I want to say it was based around the patent.

msv2 and mpa3 were the go to because that is what the early builds used. There were a few how to's that used them and that is what people stuck with. as far as who was selling. I believe air soldier was the easy supply for those type of projects.

Oh right. I totally forgot about AirSoldier.

I did a little more digging this morning. Even though people could buy all the parts themselves earlier than this, the first "kit" didn't come out until 2008? (Was this the first one?) According to this thread on AO, cyberave68 started this and then Loguzzzzz sold the kit.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?226161-Pneumag-Kits-Parts-Magmods-Mount-Brackets-And-More-!!!!!!!!&highlight=pneumag+kits

Ryan Mingo (knownothingmags) didn't start selling kits until 2015.

[rawbutter]

Looks like mag79 sold some kits for a while too.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?248401-Pneumag-Super-Center-Kits-amp-Everyother-Parts-Needed&highlight=pneumag+kits

[cougar20th]

Yes mag79 Sold pnuemag kits.

[Brokeass_baller]

Pneumagger on AO was doing modifications as far back as 2006ish. I used to play with him, Behemoth, and Neppo all the time. We were AO-OH.

Pneumagger stopped when he graduated college from CSU and got a big-boy job, and fell in love with real steel. One of his senior projects was an SFT Shocker-type valve train actuated by what were essentially pneumag parts.

[Spec]

Doc had a pic on his site of a sliding cocker frame on a mag that was a pneumatic trigger. That would be well into the pre-2002 group. I thought it was 98ish. Couldn't find the shot myself.

[Brokeass_baller]

Here's the G-Force gun. The 68 Super, it was going to be called.

EDIT: This is the same G-Force that developed the Gemini dual LPR system for the Autococker, by the way.

I remember seeing a video of a dude with a big nose and a yellow minimag shooting pretty quickly with a single trigger Benchmark frame with an LPR hanging from the VA. Its very much home VHS quality. I'll see if I can find it again. No idea what year it was filmed. I remember finding it originally on Jayloo.

[rawbutter]

Someone mentions the 68Super in this thread on AO. It's from 2004.

https://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?145905-Gforce-s-68super-vs-HAir-Trigger&highlight=gforce

If it did really come out in 2004, that's practically the same time as Deadly Wind's frame.

[Brokeass_baller]

The second video I posted shows a © date of 2006. I don't think they ever were released. I would assume only a few prototypes exist. Especially by that point, the Ion was out. Nothing could compete with that.

[Brokeass_baller]

Now that I'm thinking about it, I believe Jay at Cerberus made the first commercial drop-in pneumag frames. He had the AirWalk v1, which I owned, and the AirWalk v2, which had finger grooves. Later, he sold the StormWalk v1 and v2, which I think were just the AirWalks, but with a mock eMag battery pack thing and an extravagant trigger guard, with air-though passages throughout somehow.

[rawbutter]

Wow. I forgot about that too. That was an important development.

[minigscanada]

Here

[rawbutter]

This is an interesting idea, but unfortunately I don't think it will pulse. If it's supposed to go between a pneumag valve (like the MAC-33) and the piston, then it will just open to the point of letting air go through, which will push the piston and sear and fire the Automag only once.

Besides, making an extra attachment to make a pneumag shoot full auto isn't necessary. You can already tune a pneumag to be full automatic if you balance the LPR just right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkJEi_VX04w

In my opinion, however, this trick is pretty useless. It's not nearly as fast as RTing a mag valve with a high pressure output tank. Plus it completely defeats the primary purpose of a pneumag. People build pneuamgs because they want a short, light trigger pull. They don't build them to max out ROF. That's what RTing is for.

[rawbutter]

Now that I'm thinking about it, I believe Jay at Cerberus made the first commercial drop-in pneumag frames. He had the AirWalk v1, which I owned, and the AirWalk v2, which had finger grooves. Later, he sold the StormWalk v1 and v2, which I think were just the AirWalks, but with a mock eMag battery pack thing and an extravagant trigger guard, with air-though passages throughout somehow.

Is "Jay at Cerberus" the same as Jay8541? Was there anyone else involved with Cerberus Innovations? I'm trying to find the first order thread for the Airwalk frame, but I must not have the right search terms.

[rawbutter]

I spent some time this morning updating the Google Doc. It's still not done, but there's some good progress there. Please let me know if you see something else I'm missing.

I'm also trying to include some pictures, but of course all the hyperlinks in the old threads are broken. So if you have pictures of anything, it would really help if you posted them here.

[Brokeass_baller]

Is "Jay at Cerberus" the same as Jay8541? Was there anyone else involved with Cerberus Innovations? I'm trying to find the first order thread for the Airwalk frame, but I must not have the right search terms.

Yes, Cerberus Jay is Jay8541. I think it was a one-man show, but I'm not positive.

Also, I did a little bit of Google-fu and found that there was also a patent discrepancy involving PTP and an assisted trigger system. I have not dug for verification yet, but according to the thread I was reading, RRFireblade helped with it somehow, and the patent was later sold to Tom Kaye.

Edit: Here's the link to that thread:

https://www.paintballforum.com/threads/official-pbf-pneu-mag-thread.114535/

[LukeAO]

The patent was never sold to Tom. Deadly Wind took his hAir trigger to AGD to work out a deal to have AGD bring it to market. As I recall Tom had two stipulations, first he wanted the design changed to make it easier to tune and he also wouldn't manufacture it unless DW got a patent..

I dont know about RRFireblade being involved or not, I do remember that name but that's all at this point, I would need my memory refreshed that was a long time ago. lol But wasn't he the Devil-Mag guy??

Now rabidchihauhau from AO was involved with PTP, not sure if he was an employee but I'm fairly sure he wrote the patent for Forrest. He also policed AO and sent out cease and desist "MESSAGES" to those of us that were going to put kits and frames out, I was one of the guys early on that was shut down by him.

I didn't have much to do with pneumags until years later and after others were selling kits and after the first frames that came out designed to mount the MSV2's and MPA3's. I washed my hands of the whole mess for years after the dust settled..

[Brokeass_baller]

The Devilmag guy was GA_Devil. RRFireblade was around for quite some time after that, and other electro projects, faded out.

I remember when I first discovered you, Luke. You were the guy doing sick vertical feed mods, rails, and Spydermag conversions. Lol.

I remember rabidchihuahua, but had no idea that he was doing all of that! That's crazy. By the mid-2000's, I don't think the pneumag was stoppable. It was just too popular.

I do remember cyberrave selling kits, or offering a conversion service? I can't remember how deeply involved he was.

[rawbutter]

Thanks for all the help, guys. I think I'm not 95% done with the fact-finding. Hopefully I'll have some time soon to do a video and sum it all up.

For the most part, I'm not planning for the video to include every little detail. I have the Google Doc for that. And I'm probably going to gloss over the stuff about the patents. I'd rather focus on how the community as a whole pulled together to keep the idea alive, so to speak. I think it's pretty amazing that so many people have taken turns carrying the torch, and here we are, 20 years later, with people still making DIY pneumags and Luke selling ready-to-go frames. I think that's amazing.

[LukeAO]

And I'm probably going to gloss over the stuff about the patents. I'd rather focus on how the community as a whole pulled together to keep the idea alive

The patents were the driving factors with Pneu-Mags from the start and how we ended up here today. To gloss over it and treat it as if it has no significance will just make whatever you're trying to do here incomplete. Who's to say where AGD would be today if the patents had not prevented TK and Deadly Wind to partner up on the hAir trigger(?) The patents were a huge deal and is the history of the pneumag..

[rawbutter]

The patents were the driving factors with Pneu-Mags from the start and how we ended up here today. To gloss over it and treat it as if it has no significance will just make whatever you're trying to do here incomplete. Who's to say where AGD would be today if the patents had not prevented TK and Deadly Wind to partner up on the hAir trigger(?) The patents were a huge deal and is the history of the pneumag..

Sorry. I misspoke before. I am going to talk about the patents. I'm just not going to worry about the nitty gritty of everything and exactly when it all happened. I think it will be enough to generalize that whole mess and focus instead on the fact that the existence of the patents was the driving force behind so many DIY projects and custom parts. If AGD or someone else had released their own pneumatic frame, I probably wouldn't be making pneumags today. You neither.

I would love to go into more detail than that, but that all depends on who responds to this thread and the emails I've sent out. And it depends on how well people remember this. If someone says they're "fairly sure" about something, I'm hesitant to include that part unless it's corroborated by someone else.