RT fine Tuning

[Drcemento]

`I inherited my cousins old RT classic. Thanks to all the good info here - esp. the sticky. I went through and got a full re-build kit installed, re-greased the reg spring and got it shooting nicely. took it our for a couple games on monday and love this thing. I've got about a half case through it now and will get some more through it this week to help get past the 1 case or so break in before I start fiddling with it more.

It came with a pro-team double trigger frame. I'm running a 68/4500 with a TKO reg factory set to 850. it has a level ten installed

its definitely not easy to RT this thing - every once in awhile I touch the trigger just right and rip a little string of 4-5 balls and that feels nice!

my questions are as follows:

is it just to early in the break in to be making assumptions on how well it will RT? I don't need this thing ripping 30BPS my hope is to fine tune it to the point where I can have that 10 BPS there if i need it

is 850 just to low for effective RT? what can be done within that pressure range that will help with RT, or would 900-950 be a better target. I've seen videos of what happens up around 1100!

how much of this might be that Pro-team double trigger? never really liked the feel of double triggers, and really only see the RT come into play when i have one finger on the upper half of the trigger. the lower half seems to just give to much leverage.

i'm no expert here but it seems to me the push back on the trigger should be stronger than it is to get a nice balance of finger pressure and trigger pressure to bounce it - its there anything to do to effect that pressure - again is it just break in time?

can someone explain Valve recharge rate - I know bearded works says its almost as important as input pressure - is this related to the tank reg or the body reg?

[superman]

RT effect is based on a few things. how broken in the orings are, On/off pin length and tank reg output and recharge. You do not need 1100 psi to get it to rt. I have mags that will rt at 800psi just fine. you will need to wear in the orings and adjust the pin length to get it where you want it. I typically do not go shorter than . 740.

Once the orings are worn in then start adjusting stuff. I personally also run the gold spring as it requires less pressure to fire the ball. It is a bit harder on paint but more efficient.

[Drcemento]

thanks BW.
by "adjusting the pin length" are you literally just grinding/filing off a smidge and testing it? so crazy how that can have an effect. Will measure mine tonight and see if anyone did anything to it in the past.

the AGD re-build kit came with a gold spring. its about 1/8" longer than the gold spring in the automag kits.

[superman]

Gold spring should be the same in both kits. either way is fine.
Yes to the grinding, but make sure it is flat on the bottom, make sure the orings are broken in and if you need a replacement agd has them.

[BrickHaus]

Chuck the pin in a drill carefully and try to stone the face while spinning. It'll help keep you true. I used to have a buzzsaw mag we took the pin down in.

[Spider!]

With regard to just pressure, I have three bouncers that I used to play scenarios with. I always checked the rate while chrono'ing. Higher pressures always gave me a stronger bounce and a faster bounce. 850psi was weak at about 12 bps. 950 was about 17 bps. The little white bat radar chrony gives you a rate when you do multi-shots. Check your field rules on the max rate.

superman we used to use ult/lvl 10 shims in RT tops to test shorter pin lengths. Is the draw back that you're crowding the top orings? Or is the top exhaust indexed to the port, which would get turned a little? It's been too long.

[superman]

I have seen some on/offs where they have a hard enough time fitting into a normal body with fresh orings let alone adding shims. I could see adding shims causing a tighter fit on the smaller oring aswell. I think it really just depends on how the tolerance stack ends up.

[Drcemento]

OK - its been a year almost, and I've now run at least a case through my RT. I LOVE this gun! it gets mad respect on the field and I love how it handles and shoots. that said - the RT is **meh** at best, and now that things are broken in I want to start fine tuning.
I filed down a spare on/off pin to .744 and put it back in - and almost Immediately I got some nice RT action, but it was short lived - the Banjo bolt has always been finicky - I'll install it, air up with no leaks and as soon as I start firing ill get hisses down the barrel and sometimes a leak - as soon as I tighten or loosen the banjo I can get it to stop and after a couple tries find a sweet spot that wont leak.
however - now its affecting the RT - it likes to be loosened slightly and I can really get it rockin - however it also starts the hiss/leak, If i tighten it the leak stops but so does the RT

any ideas? it has a LVL ten bolt not sure if thats relevant - i have not played around with it at all - it was installed by an airsmith 15+ years ago and seams to be working fine - this thing does not break paint. usually with a mag a barrel leak is fixed with a spacer....

[Dusty Bottoms]

Different trigger frames are easier to work with for RT'ing than others, and it really is kind of a case by case basis. You can definitely use that trigger frame for RT'ing if the gun is setup right, though, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Yes, banjo bolts can be finicky, and some just are more troublesome than others for some reason. Those banjo bolt orings need to be in good condition or they can give you leak problems. you don't want any visible nicks or scratches on them. Your RT Classic is only really held together by two things: the front frame screw and the banjo bolt. There is a tension balance that needs to be in place or else you can get weird mystery leaks or odd things happening. All that means is don't overtighten one or the other, or weird leaks can pop up. Definitely take a look at the banjo bolt orings, though. You might even want to pick up a spare banjo bolt from AGD to see if it acts differently, or just buy banjo bolt orings to replace yours with.

One of my favorite RT Classics has a banjo bolt that will usually start to leak several games in because it will slightly start to loosen by rubbing against my gloves during play. I just have to retighten it between games and its good again. There is a reason AGD only used the banjo bolt concept on ONE mag, the RT Classic, and then switched back to their traditional thumb screw!

When you changed out the orings with your rebuild kit, did you change out the carrier oring in the powertube for your Lvl10 bolt? If so, these can take some breaking in, and often guys will choose a oring/carrier combo that's either a little too tight and causes bolt stick, or a little too loose and causes barrel leaks. You want to make sure this is chosen correctly so you don't have to deal with this and it performs like it should. Like superman said, use the gold spring if your setting it up to 'RT'.

Personally, I prefer using higher air pressure to help make mags 'RT', than just relying on on/off pin length and orings alone. I have several adjustable tank regulators that will go up to 1100-1200 psi, but I usually prefer to stay around 900-1000psi. I keep my Ninja SHP reg set at 900psi, and usually use my Armageddon adjustable regs a little higher.

I will say, if your just looking for a easy, kinda sedate 10bps on tap when you need it, RT'ing with a mag really isn't going to do that. It's hard to get one to reliably stay under 12-14bps on the low end. The valve wants to go faster! Because of most field's bps rules, 10.5bps is universal, and because I'm just playing recball anyways, I very rarely actually use the 'RT' function on my RT mags unless I'm messing around at the chrono for fun. I just run things straight semi, and I like the little bit of trigger return force the RT gives you compared to a classic valve'd mag.

[superman]

you do not want to change the carrier oring until it has gone through to the smallest carrier and then begins to leak.

Also worth noting that recharge rate matters as well not just the pressure.

[Drcemento]

yikes - thats why I didn't fiddle with it in the first re-build. I dont have the original carriers in different sizes so I can't play around with it much may have to order them ASAP to have in case that O-ring swap opened a LVL 10 can of worms

[Drcemento]

After some more fiddling last night I think I answered my own question - I realized i never really dug into the LVL 10 and changed anything out, and the white carrier Oring was definitly past its prime. I swapped it out with out paying much attention to the fit and feel, but the leak immediately stopped, and I could leave my banjo at the right spot to get more bounce - it RT's really nicely when dry firing. at 800 PSI input its probably in the 10-12BPS range which is all I really ever want - like Dusty said i love the trigger feel in semi mode. will see how it does out in the field saturday. I play at paintball jungle in Nor-Cal where you lucky if they chrono you...ever and there is no mention of BPS - allot of guys are clearly running some firehoses. Whatever - its all part of the package and you either opt in and go with it or play somewhere else - its true woodsball with huge fields and your typically engaging at really long distances anyway. coming from allot of outlaw pump and stock class its pretty fun to go bananas, and its typically a very well behaved crowd considering the chaos of the games and lax rules.

[Dusty Bottoms]

"Also worth noting that recharge rate matters as well not just the pressure."

That's VERY true! One regs "850psi" output is not necessarily the same as another's 850psi. Ninja SHP's recharge rate seems to be good, but my Armageddon's seem to recharge even better. Of course, drawback is that they're boat anchors.

Drcemento, if I was playing at that field with guys running whatever, lots of ramping, I'd probably let the old RT breath a little fire as well! That's how all my local fields were years ago, but things are alot more regulated now. It's cool your learning the ins and outs of the RT Classic, though, and running it well out there.

[Drcemento]

thankfully Superman pointed me in the right direction on the Regs early and I got a really nice powerhouse specially for my RT. may have to get a really special 900-1000 reg and really let er' rip

[shrompman420]

hey man i have an RT that rips, lvl 10, 68/4500, tko powerhouse set at 1000 psi. carbon freak running .678 im plus/minus 8 fps over the chrono
this is the result
THANKS WILLIAM THE THIRD!!!
Reddit - Dive into anything
https://www.reddit.com/r/paintball/c...s_vintage_mag/

[William the Third]

I didn't do shit! You can't prove it was me! I was never there! I swear she told me she was 18!

[shrompman420]

"also worth noting that recharge rate matters as well not just the pressure."

that's very true! One regs "850psi" output is not necessarily the same as another's 850psi. Ninja shp's recharge rate seems to be good, but my armageddon's seem to recharge even better. Of course, drawback is that they're boat anchors.

Drcemento, if i was playing at that field with guys running whatever, lots of ramping, i'd probably let the old rt breath a little fire as well! That's how all my local fields were years ago, but things are alot more regulated now. It's cool your learning the ins and outs of the rt classic, though, and running it well out there.

my rt brothers!!!!
Bbbrrrrrppppppptttttt!!!!

[Drcemento]

another update here that hopefully is helpfull. got out for another day of mayhem at paintball jungle here in norcal. I got powerhouse to rebuild the reg to get me up in the 900-1100 range and I now feel like i am in full control of this beast. 950psi seems to be right in the 12-15bps range - the orings in the level 10 are feeling really good - no more issues with the banjo all the sudden - so pressure really counts in this case. i've come to really appreciate the powerhouse regs and their recharge rates as well. I bumped it to 1000 and this thing was a goddamn chainsaw. also loving the ctrl 1 hopper - it seems to keep up just fine even at 1000 psi where I hit 18-20BPS. reg keeps right up and Lvl 10 - i broke one ball today and shot 2000+ rounds through it! pin is at .742 now

thank you all for the help. what a wonderful gun. may be sending it @supermans way to yak out some weight in the rail. it is heavy!

[superman]

Just let me know.
I love how everyone always recommends the ninja shp, but when they get a powerhouse it is just performs.
I just sent some of mine back in for services. 3 years of garage shop compressor fills and i felt like it was time.

Just let me know what you need on the rail. I have been rather slammed with real job stuff lately.